Rewards in WoD

[Derp]

@HelloRaptor said:

@Derp
I usually encounter it more as an OOC matter of Bob's player wanting XYZ and so handwavium applied, Bob does some nebulous shit and just happens to come up with that exact stuff, because he happened to OOCly see the writeup.

And that differs from anyone else getting a legacy how? You meet the initial prereqs and request it, and then every time you hit the shit for a new attainment you, like, update your note or whatever. Generous amounts of handwavium are often applied to this, just like with learning arcana, because nobody wants to go through all of the arcane tedium of trying to figure out how to make it A Big Mystery.

I mean, I personally love that kind of RP, but it's not everyone's bag by a long shot, and most people just bitch and whine if you don't let them throw dice at things and not have to figure out how it works. So really, that's any legacy at all, even ones right out of the book.

[HelloRaptor]

@Derp

I mean, I personally love that kind of RP, but it's not everyone's bag by a long shot, and most people just bitch and whine if you don't let them throw dice at things and not have to figure out how it works.

Oh shit, not bitching and whining. You're right, I'd forgotten what a compelling reason that is not to do something, my bad.

And that differs from anyone else getting a legacy how? You meet the initial prereqs and request it, and then every time you hit the shit for a new attainment you, like, update your note or whatever. Generous amounts of handwavium are often applied to this, just like with learning arcana, because nobody wants to go through all of the arcane tedium of trying to figure out how to make it A Big Mystery.

If somebody wants to throw dice at trying to figure out the exact requirements necessary to completely duplicate a Legacy without being initiated into it somehow, like I said, more power to them. Since you cut off the important bit for your quote, I'll restate it here:

More specifically, they don't want to ICly 'copy' anybody, so the idea of doing any of the above would probably put them off way more than just asking them to come up with a variation on the same.

They don't want to throw dice at it, even, because they-the-player just want their PC to have the Legacy. Why should they have to go experiment on a vampire to become a Tremere? Bah humbug. They'll just mysteriously become one, tada, because poof Legacy. Or want to get all of the exact same Attainments and shit, anyway.

Which brings us back around to: Something being technically possible doesn't mean staff has to, or even should, allow it exactly as presented. Just like your ST has the right to say no to a Legacy that will raise the bar too high (which, to be honest, would be a pretty fucking hysterical pitch given what's in the official resources) and tone it down, they've got a right to say they aren't going to handwave you just waving your hands and poof, gaining access to the exact attainments of a Legacy you've got no insight into IC.

There are a number of Legacies that even specifically call out the fact that if you're already a part of the Legacy and either can't or won't follow the proscribed methods for advancing that Legacy (such as because you've been ostracized, or it requires access to a specific item that you can't get your hands on, or whatever else) your only option is to split off into a variant Legacy by upping the Gnosis requirements by +1 and coming up with an alternative attainment. If that alternative attainment could just be the exact one you're being denied like it's no big deal, I'd assume that would get some mention, but it doesn't.

Which means, yet again, that I'm not going to be too sympathetic to somebody bitching and whining because they're not getting exactly what they want, when they're being a tool about it to begin with.

[Arkandel]

See - and this might come down to a personal peeve of mine - what I dislike about the practice of exclusivity other than the obvious (there're many more players than cool mechanical effects) is that some people are simply more brazen than others. I don't mean that to be a negative thing, only to say that some players just are simply further naturally inclined to petition for "more" from staff than others.

That has nothing to do with how well connected they are or if they are looking to twink; I openly admit to enjoying twinking, and am often pretty friendly with staff on the games I play but I'm also quite adverse when it comes to asking for more bang for my buck, so to speak, and I doubt I'm the only one who thinks like that.

So when applying for the same thing - let's say a 5-dot Gadget - with the same mechanical goal in mind ('I want to punch harder') I might end up with a bonus ('+5 to punchery!') while shameless jerks like @HelloRaptor end up with something far better ('+5 to punchery and 50% chance for a knockout! and it projects a WHAP! sound balloon over the target's head!') simply because the rules for what's permitted are fuzzy and there aren't samples to go by and determine how much power each dot level represents. There are a few in the splat-books usually but the pool is tiny and MUSHes often interpret then set the bar differently.

Since this is the only way people can get better returns for their investment in games - since powers are streamlined, if we both buy Protean 3 we get the same thing - custom content can be tricky to balance right.

It only gets worse if people expect theirs to be exclusive because some of the nicer mechanics (reflexive healing, damage downgrade/upgrade, etc) really are few in number.

[Misadventure]

It is critical to me that every player have the same opportunity for the same abilities and powers, especially when discretion is involved.

[HelloRaptor]

@Arkandel

So when applying for the same thing - let's say a 5-dot Gadget - with the same mechanical goal in mind ('I want to punch harder') I might end up with a bonus ('+5 to punchery!') while shameless jerks like @HelloRaptor end up with something far better ('+5 to punchery and 50% chance for a knockout! and it projects a WHAP! sound balloon over the target's head!') simply because the rules for what's permitted are fuzzy and there aren't samples to go by and determine how much power each dot level represents. There are a few in the splat-books usually but the pool is tiny and MUSHes often interpret then set the bar differently.

That's not really the case for Mage Legacies, though. There are a fuck ton of them. There are two entire books full of them, and more in every Order book, etc. Here's a list. They do vary pretty wildly in power level, from the barely useful to the earth shatteringly ridiculous, but there's no shortage of examples to pull from or base ideas on.

As for you being opposed to asking for more bang for your buck, that's a pretty poor excuse for anything, man.

It only gets worse if people expect theirs to be exclusive because some of the nicer mechanics (reflexive healing, damage downgrade/upgrade, etc) really are few in number.

Again, I'm only speaking of Mage Legacies, but exclusive is a weird way to put it. While I can only speak for myself, the situation wasn't even exclusive, it was that my character had developed his Legacy IC and it was not a Legacy people were walking around teaching in the wider world, so somebody suddenly showing up claiming otherwise was pretty disgruntling.

I know that I, along with a couple of others in similar situations, was more than happy to bring someone into the Legacy. The problem was that people wanted to bring in brand new characters who already had it, and then got pissy when told that wasn't cool. Or in one case was told it was cool by an asshole staffer who I still think new better.

And since you're focused on specific powers, the folks I spoke to with other custom legacies couldn't have given two fucks if somebody used their shit as the basis for something new. Want reflexive healing or damage downgrading? Cool, come up with your own spin on it. Every power my Legacy had was directly based on shit I found just poking around the Legacies. Want to make something more powerful in one area, weaken it in another, etc. Slap a new coat of paint on it, there you go.

People objecting to other folks being allowed access to their custom Legacy, one created IC, isn't about coveting a particular power. As I said before, I found people trying to claim that because they came up with a spell nobody else should be able to cast it to be pretty lame. But whining because you don't get to come in as an established Superdude Legacy character when Dude is the one who created the Superdude Legacy IC and hasn't had a chance to bring anybody else into it, is not even remotely the same thing.

Now, I did hear that at one point there was a kerfluffle because a player had designed an existing Legacy for his character to be a part of and was getting pissy over people wanting to bring in characters who also belonged to it. That, again, isn't even remotely the same thing. He was a douche for trying to assert that because he'd come up with it OOC nobody else could use it, when his having bought it at straight Gnosis (and the Legacy writeup itself) indicated there were NPCs out there with that Legacy.

reflexive healing

This has been mentioned more than once, and I grind my teeth at people using it an example of overpowered Legacy powers. Yes, it was reflexive healing. With a limit of no more than base Stamina+Size healing per day, that could only be activated immediately after taking damage (so if you took 5 but only rolled 2 succs, you don't get to try and heal the other 3 until you've been injured again, at which point there's even more damage to heal).

The Legacy healing power it was based on wasn't reflexive but was otherwise Disbelief-free healing all day if you needed it. What's functionally an extra 7-11 HL per day is really only situationally better than 'however many that you need', especially when there was a Life spell to just give yourself extra health levels and another for flat out regeneration.

[Tempest]

For how often mage players bring up "disbelief", it never seemed to be much of a thing in actual play, and people love to brag about "omg I can do XYZ without causing disbelief", in a fashion that seems to imply they know they're being asshats and effectively breaking the system.

Here's to hoping the new book makes them less ridiculous and gives some actual downsides to being a mage.

What game is this that allowed custom legacies? The Reach? I don't understand how a multi-sphere game can allow custom shit in one splat, and not others. Another mark against the asinine idea that is "sphere staff", imo.

[surreality]

Sphere staff unto itself isn't so much a bad thing in that it means there's one person with a final call that is expected to know what the hell they're talking about, and have at least passably reasonable judgment.

That is more necessary than it may sound; even staff teams that get along very well may have vastly different ideas about which direction to go on any given issue -- from a basic 'goddammit OP left this totally nebulous again and left it up to the ST to make a call so we should probably post somewhere how the game handles this scenario for future reference and consistency' (which comes up all the time) to more serious concerns, like 'the sphere is in shambles and everyone hates everybody else in it and nothing is happening and dogs and cats are living together and... and... and... ' final calls on how to handle it -- revamp, scrap, overhaul, close for repairs, etc.

Everybody is going to have a different idea about those things, and while it's great to have a variety of opinions pouring into the idea pot for consideration? It can be argued and voted on until doomsday, which is a common recipe for burnout, frustration, flaring tempers, and hostility in too many cases for it that to be a good thing.

There's a hell of a lot of problems with the sphere staff model -- but not everything about it is a bad idea. 'Everybody does everything' is not the best solution for consistency or all the details working out; considering the density of the source material and all of its quirks, not everyone is going to be as competent at certain tasks. The 'all admins are general admins + there is a sphere expert/authority available/poor son of a bitch stuck standing right where the buck stops' model is considerably better than either, really.

[Coin]

@surreality said:

Sphere staff unto itself isn't so much a bad thing in that it means there's one person with a final call that is expected to know what the hell they're talking about, and have at least passably reasonable judgment.

That is more necessary than it may sound; even staff teams that get along very well may have vastly different ideas about which direction to go on any given issue -- from a basic 'goddammit OP left this totally nebulous again and left it up to the ST to make a call so we should probably post somewhere how the game handles this scenario for future reference and consistency' (which comes up all the time) to more serious concerns, like 'the sphere is in shambles and everyone hates everybody else in it and nothing is happening and dogs and cats are living together and... and... and... ' final calls on how to handle it -- revamp, scrap, overhaul, close for repairs, etc.

Everybody is going to have a different idea about those things, and while it's great to have a variety of opinions pouring into the idea pot for consideration? It can be argued and voted on until doomsday, which is a common recipe for burnout, frustration, flaring tempers, and hostility in too many cases for it that to be a good thing.

There's a hell of a lot of problems with the sphere staff model -- but not everything about it is a bad idea. 'Everybody does everything' is not the best solution for consistency or all the details working out; considering the density of the source material and all of its quirks, not everyone is going to be as competent at certain tasks. The 'all admins are general admins + there is a sphere expert/authority available/poor son of a bitch stuck standing right where the buck stops' model is considerably better than either, really.

"Everyone does everything" isn't a good model. "Anyone can do anything [if they're knowledgeable about it]" is much, much better.

[ThatGuyThere]

@Arkandel
Simple you follow standard negotiating tactics, ask for the moon be ready to settle for what you actually want. And every now in then on games both mushes and tabletops you end up getting the moon.

[Derp]

@Coin said:

"Everyone does everything" isn't a good model. "Anyone can do anything [if they're knowledgeable about it]" is much, much better.

So far, this model seems to be working out pretty well.

[HelloRaptor]

@Tempest

For how often mage players bring up "disbelief", it never seemed to be much of a thing in actual play

That has more to do with the nature of a MU* setting than anything else. The majority of PCs tend to be supernaturals or folks who won't provoke Disbelief to begin with, so the people you're interacting with in day to day roleplay aren't a problem. The NPCs around you should be, but the majority of folks who acknowledge that are by definition not doing things to provoke disbelief, so you're not going to notice them. A mage who can pump all his stats to 8 but isn't walking around like that all the time is, by definition, not bothered by disbelief.

It's the handful of assholes who do it and pretend like nobody would ever notice you've got Dex 10, Str 10 who make it seem like the rest of us are just ignoring it. The worstmy own mage did was Stamina 8, and even that was only occasionally.

Managing disbelief for mages is a lot like managing the masquerade for vampires: If you're being careful, it's probably not going to come up unless a Storyteller decides to make a point of it. Disbelief is just kind of more nebulous in that the line of where it'll be provoked isn't always agreed upon, and the natural inclination of people to err on the side of being dicks doesn't help.

and people love to brag about "omg I can do XYZ without causing disbelief", in a fashion that seems to imply they know they're being asshats and effectively breaking the system.

I'm not sure what you mean here. If somebody's saying they can walk around with Str 10 without causing Disbelief then yeah, they're being an asshat and effectively breaking the system. If they're talking about Legacy attainments, then it's effectively breaking the system in a way the system intends it to be broken.

Here's to hoping the new book makes them less ridiculous and gives some actual downsides to being a mage.

I dunno, nVampire didn't make sunlight any more of an actual downside to being a vampire in practical terms. When all your scenes take place at night and everybody handwaves how much shit is absolutely not open or active at 4 in the morning you might as well be daywalking.

There's not really a way to make them 'less ridiculous' in a way that's meaningful to anybody who already doesn't like Mage. There's a lot of tweaks to the basic system, though. Fast casting is supposedly much more difficult (default of everything is ritual cast and you need extra effort or power to drop shit on the fly) but the things people whined about the most were generally not the on-the-fly shit to begin with, so while that will count as a pretty substantial downgrade in power to people who actually play Mage, it's probably meaningless to people who just complain about it.

What game is this that allowed custom legacies? The Reach? I don't understand how a multi-sphere game can allow custom shit in one splat, and not others. Another mark against the asinine idea that is "sphere staff", imo.

TR allowed custom Legacies, yeah, but you're absolutely right about the first part. It should have been allowed across all spheres. I don't see it as having much to do with sphere staff, though, especially given the amount of rotation that took place in most spheres on TR.

[Usekh]

That is one of the things that always got me, folks running around with stats like Int boosted to 8-9 permanently. Maybe my interpretation is wrong, but at that level trying to deal with normal people would be frustrating at best. I know when I did it for a scene with Brigit she was solving 50 'irrelevant' things at once, and then getting to the point at hand. Before she pretty much blew a mental gasket and collapsed.

Not 100% my interpretation of nWoD stats is correct, either way it was fun to play. Shame no-one wrote down the perfect brownie recipe though

[HelloRaptor]

@Usekh

That is one of the things that always got me, folks running around with stats like Int boosted to 8-9 permanently. Maybe my interpretation is wrong, but at that level trying to deal with normal people would be frustrating at best.

If you consider that 5 is supposedly the limit of purely human ability in terms of Intelligence, one would assume that would be true of even people with Int 5, given the frequency with which extreme intelligence seems to come paired with one sort of social dysfunction or another (whatever its source).

Since nobody's really interested in enforcing that either, it'd be difficult to make a case for doing it towards those with Int 8-9. There's also the argument that if you have enough Mind to bump your Int to 8 or 9, you also have enough Mind to recognize and adjust yourself not to suffer those dysfunctions at the same time. Edit: Which is one of the reasons it's so much of a pain to push for mental attributes provoking Disbelief. People are rarely using their Int 9 to do anything a normal person would actually disbelieve.