Rewards in WoD
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Unless, of course, tons of people isn't the point and it's more like a large tabletop game where the small amount of people playing are having fun.
I was going to make a snarky comment, but it turns out I missed copying the last bit of what I'd written, which is that these ideas might work fine for a tabletop game, because the small handful of people would fit around a table and could be reasonably sure everybody else involved actually has an interest in exactly the same shit.
I'd dispute the 'large' part, though. Most of these ideas barely glean enough participation to be a normal sized tabletop group. Either way, they're shit for a MU*.
I'm sorry, theorycrafting is kind of fun for me. I didn't know everything had to have a solid, identifiable, realistic goal. Sometimes I just like to chat about what I would do if I did something, and never really do it. Gasp, right?
Sure, me too. Are you suggesting that if a handful of people started rambling about how they'd love to make a MLP-Transformers Crossover game, like Beast Wars only with magical ponies, and all using the WoD system you wouldn't think it was some silly shit that would never see the light of day? Because I'm about 99% certain that you would point and laugh.
Sometimes, an idea is just a terrible one, and I don't really feel any shame in ridiculing terrible ideas regardless of why they're terrible, when people start talking about them like they're not. Having known you to do much the same in the past, I don't think you really disagree with that, we just disagree on what constitutes a terrible idea this time.
(And for the record: yes, I've seen small games with niche themes that have lasted upwards of a year. And a year, really, is a decent run for a small game; or any one instance of a hobby in which people are having a good time, especially now that we're not in our teens or laid-back twenties anymore.)
Again, we disagree on a pretty basic point. I'd consider a game that only lasted a year, assuming it was actually set up like an actual MU* and not just some mostly empty rooms for people to use like a tabletop game, to be an incredible waste of time. Especially given the more limited time people have to invest on a regular basis these days.
And occasional even successful games have tried non-US settings - HM comes to mind as it was set in Vienna, Germany.
Leaving aside the Austrialulz, note that I said non-US, non-Eurocentric. There've been decent sized games set in Vienna or Paris, etc. Not so much Tehran, Riyadh, Khartoum, Damascus or Abuja. Cities I'd bet good money that most of the people reading this post couldn't identify by country on a best 3 out of 5 without googling, despite all being capital cities to have been featured on even the US news over the last few years. That's not to claim any superiority, I had to google a couple of them too.
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@HelloRaptor said:
Are you suggesting that if a handful of people started rambling about how they'd love to make a MLP-Transformers Crossover game, like Beast Wars only with magical ponies, and all using the WoD system you wouldn't think it was some silly shit that would never see the light of day?
GOD DAMN ALL THE THINGS!
...back to the drawing board.
Oh fucking well.
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@surreality said:
@HelloRaptor said:
Are you suggesting that if a handful of people started rambling about how they'd love to make a MLP-Transformers Crossover game, like Beast Wars only with magical ponies, and all using the WoD system you wouldn't think it was some silly shit that would never see the light of day?
GOD DAMN ALL THE THINGS!
...back to the drawing board. -
@HelloRaptor said:
@surreality said:
@HelloRaptor said:
Are you suggesting that if a handful of people started rambling about how they'd love to make a MLP-Transformers Crossover game, like Beast Wars only with magical ponies, and all using the WoD system you wouldn't think it was some silly shit that would never see the light of day?
GOD DAMN ALL THE THINGS!
...back to the drawing board.I
that thing. On some level it probably proves why that would have more appeal than what I'm actually doing, but... -
@HelloRaptor said:
Sure, me too. Are you suggesting that if a handful of people started rambling about how they'd love to make a MLP-Transformers Crossover game, like Beast Wars only with magical ponies, and all using the WoD system you wouldn't think it was some silly shit that would never see the light of day? Because I'm about 99% certain that you would point and laugh.
Does no one else get the urge to work together in a massive effort to produce this exact game then have 50+ prople on it just to piss @HelloRaptor on? We can do it, MSB!
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As for the whole buy the dots to not get penalties and be able to do things your character should be able to. This is where a part of me says.
And this, is why we have the Mind Arcana.
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@Olsson
Filthy Mage. -
Yeah, 'temporarily get dots in X skill' is a handy trick. Part of why the Zelani are one of my favorite vampire bloodlines. None of the vampire games except RfK allows them though.
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@Bobotron said:
@Olsson
Filthy Mage.Those are the best kinds.
I frequently mutter to a friend of mine that I find it a shame the other games didn't use a not-identical-but-similarly-styled system for their powers (Disciplines, Contracts, Gifts, etc).
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@HelloRaptor said:
@Bobotron said:
@Olsson
Filthy Mage.Those are the best kinds.
I frequently mutter to a friend of mine that I find it a shame the other games didn't use a not-identical-but-similarly-styled system for their powers (Disciplines, Contracts, Gifts, etc).
It takes a particular type of player to really be able to use that kind of system, and those players really like Mage (or can play it without scratching their heads and frustrating everyone else). Using it for every other gameline would limit the games to those types of players because no one else would want to deal with that shit, heh. Some people just want "Power A does B because C," and those people outnumber the people who prefer "Power A can do C, B, D, E, F, G, H, CC, CB, CD, CE, CF, CG, CCC, CCB, CBB, ..."
I do think Vampire has a little bit of it in that Devotions are fairly powerful and malleable and customizable. And you can get a lot of mileage out of Rites in Werewolf, if you're willing.
I will agree that Contracts, on the other hand, would work well this way (or even better, in a way that is more akin to how Arts and Realms worked back in oWoD). But Dark Ages: Fae did it, IIRC.
"Excuse the hell out of you. He's a bag of dicks. I'm a carefully curated box of cocks." -- to @GirlCalledBlu upon being misrepresented.
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To be fair, in Mage. Most people only really use like two to three things from every Arcana level. Even in Mage most people don't do the advanced stuff.
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@Olsson said:
To be fair, in Mage. Most people only really use like two to three things from every Arcana level. Even in Mage most people don't do the advanced stuff.
At which point, what would be the point of having a complex, varied system if the majority of the players wouldn't even be using it?
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@Coin said:
@HelloRaptor said:
@Bobotron said:
@Olsson
Filthy Mage.Those are the best kinds.
I frequently mutter to a friend of mine that I find it a shame the other games didn't use a not-identical-but-similarly-styled system for their powers (Disciplines, Contracts, Gifts, etc).
It takes a particular type of player to really be able to use that kind of system, and those players really like Mage (or can play it without scratching their heads and frustrating everyone else). Using it for every other gameline would limit the games to those types of players because no one else would want to deal with that shit, heh. Some people just want "Power A does B because C," and those people outnumber the people who prefer "Power A can do C, B, D, E, F, G, H, CC, CB, CD, CE, CF, CG, CCC, CCB, CBB, ..."
I do think Vampire has a little bit of it in that Devotions are fairly powerful and malleable and customizable. And you can get a lot of mileage out of Rites in Werewolf, if you're willing.
I will agree that Contracts, on the other hand, would work well this way (or even better, in a way that is more akin to how Arts and Realms worked back in oWoD). But Dark Ages: Fae did it, IIRC.
As @Olsson mentioned, there are plenty of people who play Mage pretty much by the numbers and never delve into the more complex stuff. With nMage laying a million and one spell effects out for you it's pretty straightforward. Not as straightforward, but I don't really see that as much of a bonus.
Note that I didn't suggest using the Mage system for magic directly, just something more similar to it than not. As you mentioned things like Devotions can be pretty malleable for those that want to delve into them, but games seem to act like you're some kind of thought criminal if you try.
Dark Ages: Fae was an amazing take on it for changeling magic, and I still weep that it got lost in the shuffle and not used as a basis for Changeling: The Lost's magic, yeah.
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@HelloRaptor said:
@Coin said:
@HelloRaptor said:
@Bobotron said:
@Olsson
Filthy Mage.Those are the best kinds.
I frequently mutter to a friend of mine that I find it a shame the other games didn't use a not-identical-but-similarly-styled system for their powers (Disciplines, Contracts, Gifts, etc).
It takes a particular type of player to really be able to use that kind of system, and those players really like Mage (or can play it without scratching their heads and frustrating everyone else). Using it for every other gameline would limit the games to those types of players because no one else would want to deal with that shit, heh. Some people just want "Power A does B because C," and those people outnumber the people who prefer "Power A can do C, B, D, E, F, G, H, CC, CB, CD, CE, CF, CG, CCC, CCB, CBB, ..."
I do think Vampire has a little bit of it in that Devotions are fairly powerful and malleable and customizable. And you can get a lot of mileage out of Rites in Werewolf, if you're willing.
I will agree that Contracts, on the other hand, would work well this way (or even better, in a way that is more akin to how Arts and Realms worked back in oWoD). But Dark Ages: Fae did it, IIRC.
As @Olsson mentioned, there are plenty of people who play Mage pretty much by the numbers and never delve into the more complex stuff. With nMage laying a million and one spell effects out for you it's pretty straightforward. Not as straightforward, but I don't really see that as much of a bonus.
Note that I didn't suggest using the Mage system for magic directly, just something more similar to it than not. As you mentioned things like Devotions can be pretty malleable for those that want to delve into them, but games seem to act like you're some kind of thought criminal if you try.
Dark Ages: Fae was an amazing take on it for changeling magic, and I still weep that it got lost in the shuffle and not used as a basis for Changeling: The Lost's magic, yeah.
The only reason I'm kind of digging my heels in for custom stuff on Eldritch is I just didn't get around to basic in-game guidelines on how to do them. But otherwise, I'm fine with custom content. I'm gonna see about finishing that up pretty soon. Demon and Werewolf both support a lot of custom shit via Fetish and Gadgets, too.
"Excuse the hell out of you. He's a bag of dicks. I'm a carefully curated box of cocks." -- to @GirlCalledBlu upon being misrepresented.
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@HelloRaptor said:
As you mentioned things like Devotions can be pretty malleable for those that want to delve into them, but games seem to act like you're some kind of thought criminal if you try.
I imagine it's generally because people make devotions specifically designed to help their character and their character alone in some niche fashion, and sometimes it's ridiculous bullshit that doesn't add much beyond making their character more 'badass'. The Reach and that stupid 'custom' thing that was restricted to one of the families and buffed the vampire agg-claw thing to 'also steal the target's vitae' or w/e is always what pops up in my mind as the go-to for ridiculous custom BS.
I really like the idea of custom stuff, but it's hard to find a balance with it of allowing people to make fun/cool things that don't confer giant mechanical benefits.
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@Tempest said:
I really like the idea of custom stuff, but it's hard to find a balance with it of allowing people to make fun/cool things that don't confer giant mechanical benefits.
Usually you need to write out what power it is you want, and then figure out how to shoot yourself in the foot enough to have it go past Staff/ST without too much complaint.
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@Olsson said:
@Tempest said:
I really like the idea of custom stuff, but it's hard to find a balance with it of allowing people to make fun/cool things that don't confer giant mechanical benefits.
Usually you need to write out what power it is you want, and then figure out how to shoot yourself in the foot enough to have it go past Staff/ST without too much complaint.
As a staffer, I don't necessarily look for "shooting yourself in the foot". But I do look for, for example, Attribute+Skill combinations that seem hinky and that, when I look at the person's sheet, are the two stats they have at 5, whereas more logical/easily explained combinations would net them a significantly smaller benefit.
That said, when I give feedback, if I think the power needs a drawback, I will just say, "I think this needs a drawback, how about [examples]?"
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@HelloRaptor said:
I frequently mutter to a friend of mine that I find it a shame the other games didn't use a not-identical-but-similarly-styled system for their powers (Disciplines, Contracts, Gifts, etc).
@Coin said:
Demon and Werewolf both support a lot of custom shit via Fetish and Gadgets, too.
Everyone always goes for the magic items. Lulz.
There is another fairly universal way to do this too.
Points at Spirits. Points at Influence. Points at Strengthen.
You're welcome.
Racism isn't Tinkerbell. It doesn't need you to believe in it for it to exist.
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As a staffer, I don't necessarily look for "shooting yourself in the foot". But I do look for, for example, Attribute+Skill combinations that seem hinky and that, when I look at the person's sheet, are the two stats they have at 5, whereas more logical/easily explained combinations would net them a significantly smaller benefit.
This might be more palatable to folks if white wolf/onyx path didn't so frequently abandon anything resembling logic when it came to coming up with many of the dice pools they do.
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@HelloRaptor said:
As a staffer, I don't necessarily look for "shooting yourself in the foot". But I do look for, for example, Attribute+Skill combinations that seem hinky and that, when I look at the person's sheet, are the two stats they have at 5, whereas more logical/easily explained combinations would net them a significantly smaller benefit.
This might be more palatable to folks if white wolf/onyx path didn't so frequently abandon anything resembling logic when it came to coming up with many of the dice pools they do.
I don't really see that as a reason not to be discerning myself, and can't possibly give a single fuck less than I do if people's reason for shitty design is "it's shitty in the books, too". That is a horrible excuse.
"Excuse the hell out of you. He's a bag of dicks. I'm a carefully curated box of cocks." -- to @GirlCalledBlu upon being misrepresented.
