Spying on players

[Sunny]

I understand that the government has access to everything I do/say, and that there's no such thing as privacy on the internet.

I also prefer to not have the people I interact with on a daily basis reading over my shoulder because it's just awkward. The chances of the government giving a shit about what I write (and therefore, paying it mind) are a lot less significant than the chances of a game runner being pissed off that I told Susie in pages about how much the site sucks.

Do I have any guarantee of privacy on the internet? Nope. Do I prefer a game where the staff says 'we don't spy' and then behave in a fashion that allows for me to trust them? Yep. I won't play on a game where I'm told someone is planning on reading over my shoulder just randomly. Don't like it.

[Arkandel]

Once upon a time a dark staff member (I couldn't even see their name) complimented me on my RP in an intimate scene.

Uhm, thanks!

[Cirno]

@Sunny said:

I understand that the government has access to everything I do/say, and that there's no such thing as privacy on the internet.

I also prefer to not have the people I interact with on a daily basis reading over my shoulder because it's just awkward. The chances of the government giving a shit about what I write (and therefore, paying it mind) are a lot less significant than the chances of a game runner being pissed off that I told Susie in pages about how much the site sucks.

Do I have any guarantee of privacy on the internet? Nope. Do I prefer a game where the staff says 'we don't spy' and then behave in a fashion that allows for me to trust them? Yep. I won't play on a game where I'm told someone is planning on reading over my shoulder just randomly. Don't like it.

If a game runner banned you over something like that, it is my opinion that they're garbage people with huge insecurities.

I would only ban people or harass them if they actually break rules, not because they told someone "Cirno is a fuckface!".

Outside of that, I agree.

[Thenomain]

Harassment is a problem.

Harassment to someone's boss, family, or not game related friends can just fuck off my game. Probably with warning first but maybe not, depending how malicious the harassment. Reaching out to make a person's wider life difficult is a dick move and using a game as the vehicle for it is betraying my trust as a provider of a game.

As I think I've largely staffed on games with an explicit No Harassment rule, I think I'm on pretty solid ground. As this philosophy has come from watching people threaten suicide over game relations and try to ruin marriages through the context of the game I feel on pretty solid footing.

Mind you, if a marriage can be ruined by something someone is or isn't doing on a game, that's not my responsibility as a game owner, but man would I want that situation off my front lawn as quickly as possible.

[Cirno]

@Thenomain said:

Harassment is a problem.

Harassment to someone's boss, family, or not game related friends can just fuck off my game. Probably with warning first but maybe not, depending how malicious the harassment. Reaching out to make a person's wider life difficult is a dick move and using a game as the vehicle for it is betraying my trust as a provider of a game.

As I think I've largely staffed on games with an explicit No Harassment rule, I think I'm on pretty solid ground. As this philosophy has come from watching people threaten suicide over game relations and try to ruin marriages through the context of the game I feel on pretty solid footing.

Mind you, if a marriage can be ruined by something someone is or isn't doing on a game, that's not my responsibility as a game owner, but man would I want that situation off my front lawn as quickly as possible.

For once, I am lucky to be employed in a dead-end job and unmarried.

[ThugHeaven]

I wouldn't mind the spying if it was used like it was supposed to. That is to see what the players are doing and drop a plot on them. I think that adds a nice wrinkle to mundane RP. But we all know that's not what happens. Say several PCs are somewhere on the grid talking about something and you drop some nice atmospheric echos on them. That's a nice touch. Or people are sitting around not doing anything and you drop something nasty on them. But some people log out when a spontaneous staff run scene happens, then you're left with two or three people, from the five or six you originally had.

Anytime I staffed and decided to watch someone, I was immediately sorry. The things I have seen that my eyes cannot unsee...Staffing is a lot of power and so many people use it for the wrong reasons.

[Arkandel]

@ThugHeaven I wouldn't consider being dark in a public room to be a security violation if you actually intend to throw plot at them. If it's in public it's more or less fair game (although staff should still be mindful of disrupting a scene people are already engaged in and seem to enjoy).

[bored]

@Sunny said:

I understand that the government has access to everything I do/say, and that there's no such thing as privacy on the internet.

I also prefer to not have the people I interact with on a daily basis reading over my shoulder because it's just awkward.

This really only goes to illustrate my point. Many people will be more cautious about what they're reading if they're an in an environment where they can expect people might suddenly show up behind them and be inclined to read over their shoulder. Somehow, suggesting the same basic good sense in the MUing population makes me the abused wife of G.W. in Theno's mind.

Do I have any guarantee of privacy on the internet? Nope. Do I prefer a game where the staff says 'we don't spy' and then behave in a fashion that allows for me to trust them? Yep. I won't play on a game where I'm told someone is planning on reading over my shoulder just randomly. Don't like it.

That's a perfectly fine decision. But you're hopefully still aware that on the game where they say they don't, its very likely if the staff is larger than one guy that someone might do it anyway.

[Ghost]

I would welcome staff being dark during an open RP scene with the intent of throwing unsolicited plot their way. After all, things happen to people, wrong place, wrong time.

However, 90% of the time I hear of staffers spying, it's because some bent out of shape staffer with a grudge wants to prove that players are talking about him/her behind his back OR are spying on TS...which is lame, sad, and I don't know what other words to use to describe it.

[Sunny]

@bored said:

But you're hopefully still aware that on the game where they say they don't, its very likely if the staff is larger than one guy that someone might do it anyway.

Yup. And I would hope that were such a person caught, they would be removed from the ability to betray trust in such a fashion again. Just as I would expect for a staff member breaking any of the game's rules. There's a pretty big difference between something being allowed and something being against the rules, even just in terms of how often it happens.

Someone MIGHT do a lot of things.

[bored]

I'm not sure there is much difference, depending on how you mean it.

If the policy is 'We can spy on you in any way we like, for any reason, all the time' (IE, Firan's) then yes, that is something of a red flag and it suggests a lot more privacy will be violated than if it wasn't the policy.

However, if the policy is 'All command input is logged for security, moderation and debugging and will only be accessed for these purposes', that policy despite allowing monitoring is not going to make unethical privacy violations more common compared to a game that says nothing or even makes some basic assurance of privacy (but doesn't completely deny wiz powers to multiple staffers). The unethical person is going to have the same options available to them regardless of what is stated, and be the same shitty person.

[Ghost]

At the end of the day, all you have is trust that the staff are ethical. There are no staffers ABOVE staffers. The hierarchy comes to an end. All you can do is hope they are doing what they say and are holding to the standards they seek to enforce.

I know that I tend to reference Mal and Inara from SerenityMush a lot, but they are a good example. Ultimately, they would do unethical things, but when they were caught would side on the "we pay for the game, so this is OUR house and you are a guest in it" angle. They spied constantly on their players.

So proving staff is spying is easier than getting them to admit it, and both are easier than getting them to punish themselves for it.

[Arkandel]

Funnily enough the MU* I feel 'safe' doing anything I like in scenes is Shang. Who's gonna spy on me and to see what? The TS? There's TS everywhere, you can walk in public and see people (and animals, and things...) going at it. Spectating it is such a common commodity its value is reduced to just about nothing at all.

So if you need to get some private RP done - and I don't necessarily mean RP of a sexual variety - you can just log on there since making alts only takes about a minute and you don't have to wait for approval, grab a room... done.

[Ganymede]

@ThugHeaven said:

I wouldn't mind the spying if it was used like it was supposed to.

If you ever meet someone that is spying on others so that he or she can give them a wanted gift, let me know. Otherwise, it's safe to presume that spying is done for selfish purposes.

If you want to drop a plot on players, find a couple in a public space and ask them via page. No need to sit around spying.

[Arkandel]

I always feel so dirty upvoting @Ganymede. Damn you people for making me do this.

[Ganymede]

@Arkandel said:

I always feel so dirty upvoting @Ganymede. Damn you people for making me do this.

Making other people feel dirty is what I do, but I usually do it with whips and chains.

[Thenomain]

People on AetherMUX really liked the public-room-watch code, to see what was going on in a room without having to go there and spam the hell out of it. It was clear when people were watching, could only be created by wizards, and was always in a place of great RP importance.

I think this kind of code is worth exploring, and since it's public I don't think it counts as "spying".

[Sunny]

@Thenomain said:

People on AetherMUX really liked the public-room-watch code, to see what was going on in a room without having to go there and spam the hell out of it. It was clear when people were watching, could only be created by wizards, and was always in a place of great RP importance.

I think this kind of code is worth exploring, and since it's public I don't think it counts as "spying".

Pern games used to use this pretty heavily too, and I don't have any problem with it. As long as it's very clearly marked that people can be / are listening to particular rooms, that's fine. I'd still object to staff sitting in that room dark.

[Ganymede]

@Thenomain said:

I think this kind of code is worth exploring, and since it's public I don't think it counts as "spying".

I concur that this is not spying, but for what reason was such code popular? I cannot wrap my head around why anyone would use it.

[Arkandel]

@Ganymede said:

I concur that this is not spying, but for what reason was such code popular? I cannot wrap my head around why anyone would use it.

I had coded something similar on a MUD ages ago when we had what we called emote-fighting tournaments. Basically they were posed duels between two characters and then the audience voted on how well they thought the fight was posed by either party - the actual outcome was irrelevant. It was used to slowly increase your PC's ability at fighting, and in my opinion, was one of the best ways I've seen to handle such a thing.

Anyway. Since we didn't want 20 people to be in a room, possibly spamming, when only two would pose anything this allowed them to spectate without being present. They could have their own scenes, and 'watch' a second one from afar.

So that's a reason for it, no?