Twinking in RP MU*

[somasatori]

@Biggles
I think this:

[...] I make it abundantly clear to any new, or existing ST, what my character is capable of, and then I work with them to deal with things, and if there are new players, I really encourage them to express and expand upon their limits to see what they can do.

...is the part that was missing from the scene I referenced. Twinking isn't a new thing by any means. I'm sure when we were all just starting out, we all played bad-ass antipaladins with a +5 vorpal greatsword in platemail of DarkDarkness or megafighting devil worshipers in black trenchcoats with twin katanas, Potence 5 and dual-wielding squad assault weapons (or something to that effect) depending on your system. But ensuring that newer players have something to do is key, I think. It creates buy-in for the new folks so they can say later on: "Hey, I did that. I wasn't great at it at the time, but I did something kinda cool and got some IC respect." Everyone starts somewhere.

[HelloRaptor]

My only issue is the minmaxers are the 21 year old heart surgeons with Medicine 5.

Yeah, where would anybody get the idea to play something like that?

For a doze of so-called 'reality', we could note that the youngest doctor in the Guinness Book of World Records (practicing doctor who did surgery on your eyeballs) was seventeen.

I think I can give a pass to somebody playing a 21 year old heart surgeon. I might ask what took him the extra four years, but I guess hearts are more delicate than eyes. >.>

[mietze]

I don't think there's anything wrong with twinks. It's like the same people who come up with spreadsheets of how many things to craft and sell on the auction house on an MMO to make the maxiumum gold. Not my deal, and I will listen politely and nod when they fondle their spreadsheets and want to show me and I'll be supportive or whatever.

I don't think having a presence of 1 and RPing yourself as a social god is twinking--I think that's cheating. It's why I like social dice, not to open that can of worms. There are people with twinkilicious +sheets who RP very well their chance die pool in every social grace, or being fumblefingered at other things. Not the same thing, IMO.

I mercilessly tease my twinky friends (Kiiiiiish-oooo! Gesundheit!) and then bribe them to tell me how to maximize my XP. I may or may not follow all of their recommendations, but they're handy to have around at times.

[Darinelle]

I don't have a problem with it. I have a problem with people who use their sheets to ruin other people's fun. If your fun is being a sheet monster, do it. If my fun is RPing and you walk into scenes where I am and instead of RPing just slaughter all the things, then you're a dick. In places where one person is meant to be the SUPERSTAR and you shit all over their fun with your amazing sheet (even though they invited you along because you're a friend) - you're a douchebag. If, however, you're superpowerful and you let other people take the spotlight sometimes, and sometimes you're the star, and you don't ruin other people's fun and you have fun of your own too? Cool.

[Bennie]

@Darinelle there is a time and a place for everything, and sheets are one of the everythings. If you RP being intimidating, and I ask to roll Resistance, and you lose, and storm out of the scene because I didn't RP being cowed, I have to ask myself why your RP was so important I couldn't succeed without ruining all the fun?

Fun shouldn't happen at the expense of others, but in an ever changing climate where fun has many different definitions, fun can be defined many different ways. When just having a sheet is enough to offend you on a game that isn't statless, I have to beg the question: Why are you even logging in to such a game? Surely there are statless alternatives out there.

[somasatori]

It's that old deal with the dude who has a shitty day and wants to murder his way through problems at the gaming table. A little averted, but played semi-straight depending on the plot. While this isn't (in itself anyway) a terrible thing, it's something that can suck the fun out of a PrP.

It seems like the main complaint about twinks from what people've been saying is that they generally lack foibles and flaws. I get what @Biggles was saying regarding the "werewolf team" thing; that's a pretty common RPG trope, from D&D to Cyberpunk2020 even up to Rifts. It's also ingrained in video games. You need a tank, a healer, a stealthy character, and someone who can dish out the pain from afar.

One of the most commonly asked questions when people make characters is "what does the sphere/group/clan/faction/community/whatever need?" That's where the min/maxing runs you into trouble, since we tend to think along those lines. There are some other options, obviously (crafters are a very good example on WoD games), so what do you do in that scenario? That's not rhetorical; I'm wondering on opinions.

[darksabrz]

@Darinelle Amen.

More often than not, I've found that I've never been THE STAR for anything -- the sole exception was a PrP that Vinz@HM ran for Luna, where she not only discovered that her Sire was still alive (or undead, rather) and kicking, but also discovered her Khaibit bloodline and heritage. And then, there wasn't really any choice because it was just Vinz as the ST, and me playing Luna.

I've tried to do things before -- heck, Luna was trying to set up a new form of government to replace the Consulate because so many people were arguing about it. I could have made a move for a Consulate seat, but instead tried ICly to put together the foundation for a government that (in Luna's mind) might conceivably function better than the Consulate did, if only so that any elections didn't take a month or more of OOC time to hash out. But Elsa beat Luna to the draw... and we all know how that turned out.

This isn't to say that I would have done any better, and I know people would have been pitching a fit if Luna actually had managed to pull it off (or taken one of the Consulate seats) -- mostly because I was staff at the time. However, I was already planning to depart from staff to focus more on Luna and being IC, if that situation were to arise. It didn't. It is what it is.

[Bennie]

@somasatori has an idea, and runs with it. There should be room, given there is room within the rules and setting. The reason we cleave to the tried and true ideas of tank or healer or crafter is that they are easy to fit into. The entire point of these kinds of roles, and the classes that reflect them, is that you can take the idea and walk right into the role. Whether you're a great tank, at the end of things, depends. But anyone can make a tank.

So the real question becomes, how can you take your concept and make it indispensable to others, and gleam RP as your reward? Or, at the very least, this is the question I would ask.

[ThatOneDude]

@Biggles said:

So we've sort of decided to apply 'twinking' as the ability to stat your character to maximize their potential in a certain direction, usually pretty focused. What is wrong with that? To be honest, I would rather have that than everyone be a jack of all trades.

I agree with the above 100%. I use to RP in a vampire group where one of us was the badass brawler/melee guy, one was the shooter, and then we had the crowd control "Jean Grey" that would use majesty and blood magic. As a group we were tough, alone we had holes that could be exploited. It worked and made a ton of sense IC and OOC.

[Darinelle]

@Bennie - There is a time and place for everything, and sheets are fine. I don't mind min-maxxing. I don't mind combat beasts. I don't mind social combat beasts. I tend not to make them, but they are good to have around. I don't mind RPing with min-maxxers, as long as I don't end up taking a back seat forever and ever because I didn't min-max. That's more where I have the problem. When every scene becomes centered around the same person because they min-maxxed and I didn't, that's going to make me take my ball and go home. Or at least go play elsewhere. And that doesn't mean me always losing - it means me never really getting to play because said min-maxxer is so busy being full of sheet.

[somasatori]

@Bennie
True, I do tend to grab onto an idea and follow it to wherever it leads. Anyway, you bring up a good point. I think this is where the question starts to get rhetorical; wherein a +sheet becomes incredibly important and supersedes role-playing potential. Keep in mind -- I'm not saying that it's bad or good for people to twink out their sheets; god knows I do it enough. I'm wondering where the balance sits. I'd say it'd be more individual, but it's hard to do that in a communal hobby.

While having a really high Primal Urge is great for your essence/max traits/etc., it makes you pretty awful to be around for the majority of the playerbase that isn't Wolfblooded or a Werewolf (unless you houserule it to say it doesn't affect anyone with any kind of template and it's just normal vanilla mortals only). And to add a secondary thought to that, would it be considered twinking in WoD to push your power stat as high as it can go?

[Bennie]

@Darinelle said:

When every scene becomes centered around the same person because they min-maxxed and I didn't, that's going to make me take my ball and go home.

I think this is actually a separate issue, if seemingly related, and has more to do with people than sheets at all. Some people walk big. There are players who just walk big. This is something which is hard to define. Some players want to be the center of attention, and really the sheet can be a tool for that kind of behavior, but it isn't wholly necessary. They can take over the RP in the blink of an eye just by virtue of walking big. It becomes about them, because they choose it to be about them. Most of us don't try to walk big, and when we encounter someone who does, we sometimes feel like we're just the audience to their moments.

Feeling like the audience to someone who is being larger than life is a real, tangible thing that certain people dislike-that sense of being overshadowed. We don't need to so much qualify it as we need to understand that it happens. I wouldn't lay blame on the sheet, however. While the sheet might be a helpful tool in that scenario, really, it's just the take no prisoner's attitude of the person walking big that is the real challenge to be overcome - how to approach them about sharing the light, so we aren't always in their shadow.

The truth is, if you are feeling overshadowed, then a change of scenery might be in order, because certainly there is RP somewhere that would lead to feeling more or less important, certainly. Your Storyteller could hear your feelings, obviously, and try to include more ways to share the light. You could point out to the big person that they're being big, and wielding a cudgel wildly, and you would appreciate sharing the light a might.

Even something as simple as, "We feel like our RP is being impacted here, and you're being a bit disruptive, can you tone it back some so we can finish up?" One person'll scream at you like a child and stomp a foot. But the average person is going to go, "Oh, oh, sorry, my bad," and take it on the chin without a flinch.

[lordbelh]

@mietze said:

I don't think there's anything wrong with twinks. It's like the same people who come up with spreadsheets of how many things to craft and sell on the auction house on an MMO to make the maxiumum gold. Not my deal, and I will listen politely and nod when they fondle their spreadsheets and want to show me and I'll be supportive or whatever.

I don't think having a presence of 1 and RPing yourself as a social god is twinking--I think that's cheating. It's why I like social dice, not to open that can of worms. There are people with twinkilicious +sheets who RP very well their chance die pool in every social grace, or being fumblefingered at other things. Not the same thing, IMO.

This. I'm OK with twinks, though I prefer to spread my xp around as would fit the character's developement, not for maximum efficiency. I'm not OK with twinks who ignore their weaknesses, which usually tends to be glaring holes in either social or mental stats. But that's because they're cheating, and I don't like cheaters.

[Olsson]

@Bennie

This I actually agree with.

I for one generally don't play timid or withdrawn roles, it's all about being big, large, loud and bright. I generally don't overly prepare for things, I don't generally care about making plans and schemes of action.

If I see the big bad? I am going to charge him shouting taunts to try and pierce his heart. My PCs will often boast, be opinionated, and not neccecarily care about the opinion and thoughts of others.

I myself as a player, of course do care about others. I want everyone to have fun, but to me this often seems to boildown to playstyles. While I want to charge forward all suicidal blaze of glory, others want to sit back, plan, watch, and intricatly set up the eventual fall of the big bad.

If I just charge ahead, I ruin their fun.

If I have to sit through their planning and scheming? They ruin my fun.

So beyond the obvious point of alternating, sometimes letting them have fun, and sometimes letting me have fun. And me taking the backseat and pulling back on the loud and bright shit. Any suggestions for how to handle that?

[Deviante]

@Arkandel said:

When I don't know a system well enough I find someone like HelloRaptor (he knows ALL systems) who does and pick their brains dry.

I've done this with HR when I was doing a respec and becoming a Mage on grid. I've also done this with a few other folks who are very knowledgeable in other systems I'm not familiar with because I want to become familiar with them eventually. I don't have a problem with Twinks as much as I have a problem with cheaters and while it is a pet peeve of mine to see a 21 year old brain surgeon or a 21 year old PhD who also works as a porn star twink their stats, they are by far not the worst characters out there.

There will always be the players who want to make the most awesomest fighter ever and on the flip side you have players who will always want to be the consummate student. My two cents is it's okay to be a Twink so long as you're not an asshole and are willing to provide RP for others.

[Darinelle]

@Olsson is one of the players I was going to point out as someone who does a really great job of balancing being awesome because their character sheet says they are, and understanding that some people want to also participate in a scene. @Biggles another.

@Bennie - I don't have a problem telling people "hey, you're ruining everyone's fun." Of course, I also don't have a problem letting someone with an awesome sheet be big and bad and awesome. It's fun to get to use shit you bought and don't get a chance to, and I'll admit that often when I'm running things I encourage people to use their skills, and if we have to dial shit up to 11 to get everyone a chance to be amazing, then that's what we'll do.

Truthfully, I think my real contribution to this is - "twink all you want, but don't let the depths of your +sheet stop my ability to RP or you'll find we RP in very small doses." Even if your sheet is awesome, if you walk into a murder mystery, roll dice once to reverse time to see what happened, say who did it, and walk out - well, good job asshole. If you can use your sheet and dominate, but we're still having RP and everyone in the scene is still involved? Cool.

There are some twinky fucks in vampire who I really enjoy playing with - because their sheet doesn't overshadow people's ability to RP, it just means they have optimized characters. I'm ok with that.

[Bennie]

@Darinelle said:

[i]f you walk into a murder mystery, roll dice once to reverse time to see what happened, say who did it, and walk out - well, good job asshole.

I think your expectations are high. You're counting on the idea that the average player's level of intelligence has baked into it the word subtly. Given all the crazy top-heavy broads and 98 lb str 6 feral guys and the like floating around, do you really think people are smart enough to handle their Time and Space Arcanum in a better way?

If you are expecting someone to be subtle enough to step in, use their Arcanum, find this information out, and then spend 4 hours dropping really subtle clues as to the identity of the culprit, such as pointing out the lone gun casing hidden behind the dumpster, or pushing the forensics test into making an identifiable thumbprint, or pushing the computer into finding a correct match with a little bit of legerdemain, you're setting your bar really high.

This is the modern era Internet. We want all the things instantaneously. Patience died in 1999.

[Darinelle]

@Bennie - Fortunately for me, I tend to eliminate idiots and assholes from my main, character-building RP circles, and enjoy a lovely time RPing with some quite excellent people. I keep my hopes high and let people eliminate themselves from my playtime. I never have a problem finding good RP.

[Arkandel]

A lot of these symptoms seem like a subset of power gaps in general, which cause all sorts of issues. Even if there's no twinking but you stick, say, a moderately developed character with several powers and relatively high skills in a plot with someone fresh from CG, the former will be able to handle a lot more than the latter. And if their direction is similar (both are brawlers or hackers, or whatever) it'll be an even more pronounced effect.

As @Darinelle says playing with good people fixes those things anyway. Hell, I've been in plots with a perfectly well stated character where someone else was trying really hard to have a death grip on the spotlight. But they're usually easy enough to avoid after you know who they are.

[Bennie]

@Arkandel which is why historically the Dungeon Master has usually said this is a Level 3 Campaign and your characters need to all be Level 3. Didn't they actually attempt to do this with White Wolf for a while? They did their little Storytelling Adventure Synopsis or whatever that had like Mental 2, Physical 4, Social 2, and required a character between 40-80 xp to qualify.

So maybe the point is that the way in which Plots are advertised is too lazy. inviting the All Game to the rodeo instead of saying Characters 100-200 with Social primary is an option we should be exploring.