Someone make a damn CofD/Storytelling 2 game worth playing, kthx

Ganymede

Do you have any ideas about how to encourage players to try to make stuff up instead of using book effects?

I think the system ought to encourage this on its own; not mine, but Mage itself. Even with what I'm proposing, that encouragement ought to increase, since you need a Rote to do anything hardcore.

An idea I had to encourage Rote innovation is to allow PCs to swap around their Rote points freely, and maintain a list of approved Rotes learned on their Wiki page. So if I have 2-pt. Rotes and a 3-pt. Rote, I could swap in a 5-pt. Rote and a 2-pt. Rote from the list at the beginning of a scene. I haven't worked out the details on how to keep track of Rote-swapping.

Thenomain

@Ganymede

One of the big things I don't like about nWoD Mage rotes is that people on Reach were very quick to ask for existing rotes using different dice pools, to the point where I wonder why have specific dice pools at all. "I am scanning for life using my int + socialize". Er, okay?

Ganymede

@Thenomain said:

One of the big things I don't like about nWoD Mage rotes is that people on Reach were very quick to ask for existing rotes using different dice pools, to the point where I wonder why have specific dice pools at all. "I am scanning for life using my int + socialize". Er, okay?

Since the Arcana are going to be tied to an Attribute, it makes sense to do the same to limit Rote mechanics. I'd say, for conjunctive Rotes, the applicable Attribute is the highest Arcana involved.

Of course, as Sammi points out, that means people may max out in an attribute, but, meh.

Miss Demeanor

@Thenomain That's when I would go 'Okay, you don't find any rich or socially adept people in the area. Next?'. Use a silly skill...

surreality

WtF is doing that, too, for rites. Like, this is actually intentional.

@OP, Making Our Lives Hell said:

The dice pool used to perform a rite depends on how the ritemaster and participants incorporate the required symbols. The dice pool consists of Attribute + Skill. A pack whose performance is a frenzied song and dance would use Dexterity + Expression; a rite of clattering talismans and whispered eldritch invocations to command a spirit instead uses Presence + Occult. Packs gravitate towards ritual per- formances that play to their strengths, and it is up to the Storyteller and players to agree on the appropriate dice pool for a specific ritual performance.

Thenomain

@Ganymede

So you're planning on making Forces not only limited by Strength, but the Attribute for it? I'm confused, since Arcana ain't attributes.

I also know you're thinking out loud, and to allow flexibility.

For instance, I don't think that charging one XP per point of Arcana is necessarily a good idea. Shit be powerful, yo. On the other hand, I don't think it's a bad idea, either, I'd just be concerned at XP balance.

Ganymede

@Thenomain said:

So you're planning on making Forces not only limited by Strength, but the Attribute for it? I'm confused, since Arcana ain't attributes.

An illustration might be best here.

If Arcana (Forces) is limited to Stamina, then:

Your Arcana (Forces) level cannot exceed your Stamina.
When you cast improvised magic using Forces, you roll your Stamina only to determine success.
If you have a Rote in which Forces is the greatest Arcana, then your roll is Stamina + Appropriate Skill + Arcana (Forces).

On the surface, it seems pretty awful that 1 XP can bump Forces 4 to 5. And yet, when you can only roll your Stamina for improvised magic, and you have to spend 5 XP to get a Rote with Forces 5 in it, it starts to balance out. Contrast that 1 XP with what you get between Martial Arts 4 and 5.

Consider this too:

A. What if every spell cast costs 1 Willpower?
B. What if every extended roll after the first costs 1 Willpower?

Taking Gnosis out means taking Mana out, which means that casting large magickal effects can be very, very difficult at higher levels, unless you have massive pools. Which you will only have if you dump a lot of XP and get a Rote -- and that Rote only allows you to do one thing.

Ganymede

This post is deleted!

Misadventure

You could go free form, and let them allocate Rote dots as they call on them in the scene. While that is practically free, if you don't say that rotes get set in a more demanding fashion than before a scene, such as they take Dot minutes (or 5 minutes, or rote !level or whatever) to set, you will get people not thinking about it til they are in a scene, or that magic becomes likely, and then there will be list wars.

I would suggest that rotes can be reset in an hour or three, and so people should declare a common set for being out and about, and then perhaps ones for duels, action scenes, and leave the rest as not mattering and freely allocatable.

ThatOneDude

What the fuck happened to this thread?

If you don't like mage don't do mage... Make it something else. Call it a physical adept and go about your business.

Sammi

Ah yes, the time-honored tradition of fixing systemic problems with a fresh coat of paint.

Derp

@Thenomain said:

@tragedyjones said:

@Thenomain said:

@tragedyjones

I absolutely promise to maybe look into adding Mage to my CofD stat system possibly eventually.

What about Promethean, Changeling and B̶̶̫͎̠̭͈̜̼̞̐̉̈́͆ͩ̈͆͟e̼̳̻̱̾͒͑͡ͅa̤̫̤̥͖͇͍̲ͩ͑ͮ̓͡ş̠̝̪͕̮̲̭̗͑́̑ṫ͛̊͝҉͏̝̹͖̝͈̩̰ͅ?

What was that last one? I can't read that. There's too much static on the line. Let's skip it for now.

I have no idea how you did that but I would love to know. Teach me your dark magic, code-wizard.

@Thenomain said:

One of the big things I don't like about nWoD Mage rotes is that people on Reach were very quick to ask for existing rotes using different dice pools, to the point where I wonder why have specific dice pools at all. "I am scanning for life using my int + socialize". Er, okay?

The skill of a rote is largely set in stone, barring a few exceptions. (Occult and Science frequently get swapped around, for instance, because they're largely just different methodologies for discovery, with Occult being the first and foremost primary skill used in most rotes), but other exceptions do occur. Attribute switching often happens, because that's a more flexible thing, but the -skill- of a rote should be directly tied to what it's doing. Detecting life, for instance, would probably be a Medicine skill. Sensing another mind in the room would likely be an Empathy skill. Socialize is the kind of skill that gets used in a spell to charm the pants off of someone, like First Impressions.

So the alternate dice pools should really be restricted to using a different attribute, barring an exceptionally valid reason for changing the skill (which, again, is usually limited to an Occult/Science swap, and then largely used by the Free Council since they have a drastically different magical methodology.)

The attribute determines how you physically bring forth a skill. Doing an interpretive dance, for instance, might be Presence, but doing a series of asanas might be dexterity, while meditating and playing a drum might be like, stamina or resolve. That just goes on how the mage does their magic. The -skill- is determined by the actual -effect- the spell has, and the arcanum is self-explanatory.

Coin

@Ganymede said:

An idea I had to encourage Rote innovation is to allow PCs to swap around their Rote points freely, and maintain a list of approved Rotes learned on their Wiki page. So if I have 2-pt. Rotes and a 3-pt. Rote, I could swap in a 5-pt. Rote and a 2-pt. Rote from the list at the beginning of a scene. I haven't worked out the details on how to keep track of Rote-swapping.

Sounds pretty similar to D&D wizard-style memorization, for all practical purposes. "Oh, for this session I have a-b-c memorized".

Aside from that, I'm with @Misadventure in that I fail to see a way to concretely delineate each Arcanum to a specific Attribute. What is it about "Forces" that is intrinsically represented by "Strength"? Etc. It seems like it will end in a mostly arbitrary classification.

Coin

Double post:

Attributes and Skills for Rotes, much like Attributes and Skills for Rites in Werewolf are not flexible so that the player can apply their largest dicepool. They're flexible so that the spell and/or rite can be thematically appropriate to the way the character would do it.

This is largely a Storyteller call. If someone is trying to change a "detect life" spell so that it uses Socialize, a Storyteller can (hyperbolically) do one of three things: 1. say No; 2. say Yes; 3. tell them they can do that but now their spell is dependent on actually interacting with the target, so it's only really useful for detecting shit like vampires, who are animated and seem alive, but aren't, and other such creatures.

I prefer 1. Because 2. is against the spirit of the flexibility of the rules, and 3. is being a dick.

Ganymede

@Coin said:

Sounds pretty similar to D&D wizard-style memorization, for all practical purposes. "Oh, for this session I have a-b-c memorized".

That's exactly what it is. Kind of. In D&D, you have a number of spells memorized too. I was more inspired by Earthdawn, where you have spell matrices in which you keep your magic ready for unleashing.

Aside from that, I'm with @Misadventure in that I fail to see a way to concretely delineate each Arcanum to a specific Attribute. What is it about "Forces" that is intrinsically represented by "Strength"? Etc. It seems like it will end in a mostly arbitrary classification.

I know that it's arbitrary, but it was merely a suggested system, quick and dirty. Again, one of the goals is to create a system that does not require adding a template on top of the Mortal sheet and did not include a Power Stat. A friend of mine suggested that it's more pulling out the Supernatural Merits and replacing them with more flexible Merits. Which is not far from the truth.

That said: any suggestions?

Arkandel

@Ganymede said:

That said: any suggestions?

Only this: Either adopt an existing system with no or relatively few house rules which does what you want adequately or make a new system which does exactly what you want.

Going with a hybrid will cause more issues than it will solve as it will confuse players familiar with the default mechanics and those who're not familiar with that would be learning a new system anyway so you might as well have started that way.

Ganymede

@Arkandel said:

Only this: Either adopt an existing system with no or relatively few house rules which does what you want adequately or make a new system which does exactly what you want.

I am aiming to make a new system that does what I want it to. Have you not been paying attention?

You're getting nigh useless in your advanced age.

Arkandel

@Ganymede said:

I am aiming to make a new system that does what I want it to. Have you not been paying attention?

You're getting nigh useless in your advanced age.

In my defense, I've always been fairly useless.

Sammi

@Coin said:

This is largely a Storyteller call. If someone is trying to change a "detect life" spell so that it uses Socialize, a Storyteller can (hyperbolically) do one of three things: 1. say No; 2. say Yes; 3. tell them they can do that but now their spell is dependent on actually interacting with the target, so it's only really useful for detecting shit like vampires, who are animated and seem alive, but aren't, and other such creatures.

I prefer 1. Because 2. is against the spirit of the flexibility of the rules, and 3. is being a dick.

Or 4. the Socialize + Life detection spell becomes about precisely identifying physiological cues in people you interact with. You could not only identify vampires, but spot pregnant women from the first subtle changes of their bodies and probably have a pretty easy time of catching someone in a lie.

@Ganymede said:

A friend of mine suggested that it's more pulling out the Supernatural Merits and replacing them with more flexible Merits. Which is not far from the truth.

That said: any suggestions?

Not really a suggestion, but a question: have you read up on gutter magic, from Witch Finders? It's closer to oWoD's sorcerer rules.

Ganymede

@Sammi said:

Not really a suggestion, but a question: have you read up on gutter magic, from Witch Finders? It's closer to oWoD's sorcerer rules.

Not from Witch Finders, but I remember Hedge Magic from Sorcerer. And, if I recall, I remember it being as vague as a personal injury attorney's emotional damage allegations.