The basketball thread

[ThatGuyThere]

@Arkandel said in The basketball thread:

Tonight is the draft lottery (and that pesky Raptors - Cavs game, natch).

Although I'm not a fan I'd love to see something statistically improbably happen... like, say, the Wolves getting another top pick. They already have a very high upside in the next couple of years but with another great young player on the roster... man.

From your lips to God's ears I hope.
I feel a bit bewildered saying this since it hasn't been true since the mid-aughts but this is actually an exciting time to be a Twolves fan.
<hugs his sweatshirt he got autographed by Pooh Richardson back in high school.>
Though I blame the1993 draft lottery for turning my into a cynic. Twolves had hte worst record so best chance at number one and Shaq or failing that getting number 2 and Zo. we ended up with number 3 (the lowest the rules at the time allowed.) and Christian Laettner.

[Arkandel]

Well, KAT is the best player I've seen in years at that age. Anthony Davis' ceiling is around the same but he's got so many health issues. If you guys get lucky tonight the Thiberwolves may become something pretty cool.

[Tyche]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[Arkandel]

My wife made me stop screaming a couple of minutes after the buzzer. Worth it!

[Ganymede]

@Ganymede said in The basketball thread:

Trash Curry, and he'll shoot in your face. Trash LeBron, and he's going to run over you.

And LeBron ran the fuck over the people who said that he couldn't do it.

Even down 3-1.

Time for Golden State to eat some fucking humble pie. They were tired. Draymond Green played a hell of a game; Andrew Bogut was more important than people thought; and Cleveland outrebounded them.

And the Bulls love the Cavs, as much as the Dolphins love the Giants.

What a game, though. Nail-biting, right to the end.

That said: Stephen Curry's response to the loss demonstrates why he isn't done. He took the blame: he recognized his failures, his mistakes, and his duty as his team's unofficial captain. He's going to get better, as will everyone on his team. I expect to see them in the Conference Finals next year.

[Arkandel]

The Warriors got so cocky, it easily bordered on arrogance. It's sports 101 - don't brag until you win, man... making flippant comments about how they're better than the Showtime Lakers while still in the WCF? Now they get to eat crow.

As for Curry, his legacy took a huge hit from this. There was talk about him being the GOAT before this. Oops.

LeBron can do whatever he likes in Cleveland now, he owns the city. He could spend the rest of his career dribbling the shotclock out then chucking 3s and no one there will have an issue with that.

[Warma Sheen]

Some of the Warriors were cocky. But not everyone. You can't just lump everyone together. Whoever was talking about Curry being the GOAT, it wasn't Curry. The ones that were cocky actually played the best through the series. If more Warriors had been cocky maybe they would have played to a similar level.

But the only people who thought Bogut wasn't as important as he was were the people that don't follow Golden State. Festus Ezeli is a poor replacement, but that's what they had to go with. Basketball is more than just putting 5 guys on the floor. You have to put the right 5 for what the other team has. Along with an injured Iguadala, the Warriors were in a similar position to last year's Cavaliers.

When everyone was healthy and playing the Warriors went up 3-1 on the Cavs. Then injuries hit and everything turned around. They are definitely the best two teams in the NBA and by a narrow margin, but with all working pieces I say the Warriors take it. A player missing here or a player missing there seemed to make a big impact on Golden State.

Even still, they kept it closer than they should have been able to. The fact that Golden State couldn't play at their usual level offensively ultimately made the difference, though. Great teams and great players rise to the occasion. Golden State did it last year when Cleveland could not. Cleveland did it this year when Golden State could not.

[Arkandel]

Kevin Durant to the Golden State Warriors.

... Damn.

[Ganymede]

@Arkandel said in The basketball thread:

Kevin Durant to the Golden State Warriors.

... Damn.

Not sure how long that deal is for, but the Warriors may be hurting themselves in the long run.

[Arkandel]

@Ganymede Kevin Durant will sign a two-year deal with the Warriors at $54.3 million, league sources say, with a Player Option for Year 2.

I think it's a wrong move for him especially. Sure, the GSW barring injuries or other dramatic events are essentially unstoppable now (all those shot Barnes used to take now go to freakin' KD?) but so what? He'll get no credit for a 73-win team champion and two-times finalist team winning another chip, and if they lose... ouch.

Worse? He went to the team his old team was barely beaten by, after leading 3-1 first. They were a hair's breath away from the finals with the Thunder.

But on the other hand he's a professional. He made a career move and I dislike all the feedback from people about 'loyalty' and shit; look at the Bulls and how fast they traded DRose once they realised his knee injuries playing for Chicago have diminished him. Owners have zero shit to give and so should players.

[Ganymede]

@Arkandel

Stephen A. Smith says it more eloquently and succinctly than I will here: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=16762272&ex_cid=sportscenterFB&sf30235644=1. His opinion is similar to mine, now that I've had time to consider it.

It's like playing soccer when you're a kid. You're doing well, but then, the other side takes the momentum from you. Scores a couple. You're the best player on the field, and you decide to jump sides. That's juvenile, and we know it.

OKC has the talent. OKC has the skill. OKC has the players. They were very close to knocking off the Warriors, and probably should have. From outside, it looks like KD just doesn't have the guts to tough it out and try again.

Imagine if LeBron had cut his contract and bolted to the GSW after his 2015 loss in the Finals. What would we think of him then?

Right. Now, you can think that of KD. And I do.

[Arkandel]

@Ganymede For starters I agree with you - it was the wrong move by KD. He loses even if he wins so what's the point? GS will never be his team. Legacies are the one things superstars have since money are already a non-issue, he'd have gotten paid big no matter where he was next year.

But for another... I dunno, I'm trying to look at it from a broader point of view. If you were in a legal firm that has been known to fuck its own employees' chances of winning more trials or even let perfectly good lawers go to save some petty cash wouldn't you at least consider taking an offer from another firm that offered the same salary but has a great boss that gets along with everyone, a good management team and the best win/lose ratio in the state?

OKC's ownership group has been very iffy even for NBA standards. They left Seattle when a better offer came along and took the team to OKC, they let Harden go over relatively little money just after they had finally made the Finals... do you think if KD's ankle injuries of two seasons ago had gotten worse instead of better they'd have hesitated giving him up too? I'm sceptical on it.

Yes, it's sports and it's a bitch move. It is. Hell, he could have gone to the Celtics or the Knicks and it'd have been a whole different story. But he's not a kid playing for fun, he's a professional athlete and he should make the choices he thinks are best for his career.

[ThatGuyThere]

I will be he voice of dissension here. I think it was a good move, for one reason only It is essentially a one year gig, he has the option to become a free agent again next summer. He gets a shot at a ring and a big one year payday then becomes a free agent again next year when the new TV money kicked in and the estimates I am seeing make the salary cap for 2017-2018 about $30 mil more then the cap for 2016-2017.
Most of the talk I heard around Durant were teams wanting to sign him for longer terms. Honestly any big name who signs long term this summer is likely doing themselves a disservice unless age is a factor or there is some other risk factor for not grabbing the money now. Durant is not near the age of decline yet, and will likely be able to pull down a max contract next summer which will be substantially larger then a max deal this one. And it is called professional basketball for a reason money matters.
Now I am not sure GS is a good fit for him team wise or legacy wise but for a one year stop there are a lot worse calls.

[Arkandel]

@ThatGuyThere said in The basketball thread:

Most of the talk I heard around Durant were teams wanting to sign him for longer terms. Honestly any big name who signs long term this summer is likely doing themselves a disservice unless age is a factor or there is some other risk factor for not grabbing the money now.

Yes, which is why most people assumed he'd sign an one-year extension with OKC and then reassess next year.

What's really important now is all the domino pieces previously hinging on KD's decision. Does Thunder blow up their team by trading Westbook while they can still get something for him? Does Bogut leave the Warriors (which for salary cap reasons he almost definitely will have to) and where does he land? In fact it won't be enough, the Warriors might need to gut their roster to pay KD.

Also teams in the West might finally concede any chances for rings over the next 2-3 years at least... the cumulative effect of several teams into rebuilding mode for years will have a major impact on the league. Plus there's a rumor Tim Duncan is leaning toward retirement.

Finally... if LeBron can stop the GSW train next year his legacy will be glorified. I'm talking GOAT levels.

[ThatGuyThere]

@Arkandel said in The basketball thread:
. Plus there's a rumor Tim Duncan is leaning toward retirement.

Duncan is almost certain to retire if the report I saw on Deadspin is correct and the Spurs signed Pau Gasol.
I am not sure that is a good deal for them since it also means they likely lose Diaw as well to the salary cap, but when it comes to the NBA one thing I have learned d is that R C Bufford knows best.

[Ganymede]

@Arkandel said in The basketball thread:

OKC's ownership group has been very iffy even for NBA standards. They left Seattle when a better offer came along and took the team to OKC, they let Harden go over relatively little money just after they had finally made the Finals... do you think if KD's ankle injuries of two seasons ago had gotten worse instead of better they'd have hesitated giving him up too? I'm sceptical on it.

My understanding is that the ownership group left after the local government declined assisting in the construction of a new complex for the second time.

Looking at the team without Harden, is it any worse? Of course not. Harden went to the Rockets and has done little to lead them to contention status. Westbrook and Durant were the pieces to build around, not Harden.

This isn't a matter of OKC failing to produce money. There's no mention of that. No one's saying that OKC short-changed Durant or low-balled him. That'd be a good reason to depart.

He left to pursue a championship with the team that made his team look foolish and incompetent. That beat him. And that's just not the sort of defeatism I'd expect from a true superstar.

OKC had a legitimate shot of knocking out GSW next year if Durant stuck around. He did not. And I don't see any way he shakes that reputation-hit.

[ThatGuyThere]

@Ganymede said in The basketball thread:

OKC had a legitimate shot of knocking out GSW next year if Durant stuck around. He did not. And I don't see any way he shakes that reputation-hit.

This is the one or the two things about sports fandom I will never get. Athletes are working a job like anyone else. His contract was up how does him changing employers effect his reputation?
Maybe it is growing up a fan of Minnesota teams where the free agent migration away is pretty much a given. Now I will admit revering the few that stick around but I do not hold leaving against the ones that do. It's a job plain and simple they just get payed more them most because they possess a rarer skill set.

[Arkandel]

This is a pretty good read about why the NBA has found itself with such a lack of parity.

A select quote:

"Obviously, there are a limited number of superstar players in the league. How can you create parity when the acquisition of just one player can produce that many wins? Obviously, the teams with these players would have a great advantage and that’s the way it should be. If you get lucky and score a champion, well, then you win championships. What if you’re a bad team, though? How can you improve?

In a free market, the problem would resolve itself. Star players are a valuable commodity, so you’d have to pay a premium to get them. Buying a Lebron James would cost so much that the team might not be able to afford great players to surround him. Thus, a team without a star could stock up on solid players and compete with Lebron + Junk. Don’t have a superstar? Be smart, and you can still play deep into the playoffs or maybe even win (see 2004 Pistons, whose best player was a defensive specialist and best offensive player was named Chauncey).

By establishing a team cap, the only restriction would be that the huge market Lakers, Knicks, and Bulls couldn’t just drown the opposition. The cap prevents limitless spending, but teams were still forced to make decisions about how to build a team. The Lakers tried to make a “super team” in 2003-4 by acquiring Gary Payton and Karl Malone, but ended up having to play Deveon George for nearly 2000 minutes. Spend a lot on stars, and pay the consequences on the bench.

The individual cap is the root of most of the problems. By capping the total salary a single player can earn, the NBA has established an uneven market for wins. Superstars are severely undervalued. Players on rookie contracts are undervalued. Mid-level players are overvalued. It’s as simple as that."

So they established rules for trading that achieved just about the opposite of what they were meant to do (i.e. 'share the players', the explicit message of the CBA after the last lockout).

We as gamers of all people should know a thing or two about poorly thought out rules resulting in unintended consequences.

[Ganymede]

@ThatGuyThere said in The basketball thread:

This is the one or the two things about sports fandom I will never get. Athletes are working a job like anyone else. His contract was up how does him changing employers effect his reputation?

Superstar athletes aren't like everyone else. They are household names. They are recognized around the world. They are ambassadors for the game to the local, national, and international media, as well as serving as the face of charities and philanthropic organizations.

They are not like you and me.

Culturally, they are icons. They have influence. Children want to grow up to be like them. Teenagers want to be able to play like them. We're not even talking about the money; we're simply talking about the fetishism that arises out of sports culture. In the specular economy, superstars wield power by name and image alone.

Those who are mercenaries are treated the same. Mercenaries, with few exceptions, are not beloved by all; they turn based on money.

We could get into a very long discussion as to how reputation in the sports industry is tied to one's team allegiance, but suffice to say that changing teams does affect reputation in a way that is strangely similar to attitudes prevalent in more medieval contexts.

[Arkandel]

@Ganymede said in The basketball thread:

Those who are mercenaries are treated the same. Mercenaries, with few exceptions, are not beloved by all; they turn based on money.

Mercenaries they may be but it's not money they turn on. In the NBA that's a truism; if you leave your team you also actually leave money on the table (KD will receive less for example than if he had stayed) due to Bird rights. And if a team doesn't have a player's Bird rights they can only pay him exactly as much at the max as any other.

So a superstars, who almost always get maximum contracts no matter where they play, are not motivated by money (*). They are motivated by rings.

(*) Two exceptions: States with friendly income tax laws like Texas and larger markets which give them better chances to promote their brand outside their contracts.