The 100: The Mush

[mietze]

@Kestrel
tl;dr: Everyone needs to learn to just be more accepting and find their niche because no style is better than the other, it's all just preferences. Live and let live.

I think you may be a little heavy on the 'dr' side of what's been said. One of the biggest problems is that people (especially antagonist PCs, and I have been guilty of this myself at times) want to push people into boxes of 'all or nothing'. IF you don't enjoy my antagonist play at the moment, it must be because you are just one of those warm and fuzzy pretty princess TSers. Warning labels are great, but most good people are not going to want to bar anyone from play; what are they supposed to do when you join in? Tell you to get lost? Get run out of the scene themselves?

Or is it okay, maybe, to ask EVERYBODY (antagonist or not) to mind their OOC manners, to not scene dominate all the time (sometimes it's helpful to go and read logs if it's a heavily logged site). Maybe it's okay to not assume that if someone ducks out or needs to take a break from someone attacking them ICly, it may be NOT because they're a pussy who only wants to go on pony rides but because they've had someone doing that in every scene they've been in and it's stressing them out and not allowing them to actually develop their PC as much or primarily only be in defensive RP. (Which is awesome, but not if that is ALL they get to do). Just like it is okay to NOT assume that people whose PCs are snarly and snappish and mean or whatever hate your play or even your PC. That deciding to white knight someone's ass and ostracize a "mean" PC OOC/IC crossover is a pretty shitty thing to do that's deep sixing a lot of awesome RP for everyone. Or that winning/losing one time doesn't mean that's all that you're good for.

It is possible to be a difficult, hard to handle, antagonist PC /without/ needing to piss all over everyone OOCly and make every scene you're ever in no matter what it is constantly revolve around you. (For that matter, it is possible to do that as a purposeful "white knight" done well PC also, you don't need to curbstomb everyone and turn it into mememememe there either). It is not cool to assume that IC antagonists are horrible people who are only there to troll people/shit all over everyone. It's also not cool to stick one's nose in the air and say that if anyone gets stressed out/doesn't want to have antagonistic play all the time, it's because they're just a perfect princess who wants everyone to love them. While there are people who fit either extreme to a tee (unfortunately) the vast majority of people do not.

Warning labels, thematic descriptions, whatever, it has nothing to do with being an OOC jackass. You can have a very antagonistic theme with players who are not jackasses. And a 'cooperative' theme dominated by jackass players. I've seen warning labels self-applied to players who were major hosebeasts using it as a excuse to be absolutely horrible and people who were very concerned with having /and providing/ fun to other players and respectful of limits (as in, I will not think you're a pussy if you choose to limit your time with me as a result, I understand my PC isn't everyone's cup of tea, not I will change my PC to suit you.). It's really the behavior, not the warnings, that makes or breaks it. And sometimes people get a little too lazy with self-awareness. It's easy to do. I will bet you that anyone who has been a MU*er for long has created problems for themselves a time or two with self-unawareness, or they're lying.

[mietze]

@faraday I think the impact of a scene dominating player (antagonist or protagonist) can have a huge impact on a small game, or if they're in a high position. I have seen OOC mememememememe people (of both stripes) kill games (especially small games) when they also have the time to sign up/be everywhere or in positions where one must loop them into everything. Thank god that is rare. But it can and does happen. I do think it's much more noticeable and snowballs really quickly on low pop games, because then people have to escalate to carve some space for themselves too, and I have never seen that not bleed into IC/OOC crossover snark.

ETA: Anyway, this is probably its own spinoff thread. I don't play on this game, though I was considering it once I am feeling better healthwise due to a good friend who's having a lot of fun there (though if I did I would be going for a grounder, for many reasons). Some of the experiences of others does make me a little leery though (I had not heard about this prior to this thread, but I've learned to not really dismiss things like that out of hand either), because I'm of the "Variety is the spice of life" sort, and I don't want to have to deal with personal nastiness directed at my PC in every scene right from the start (nor am I particularly interested in looooooooooove loooove slobber slobber all the time either to be honest with you). I love me some frenemies and friction, but I prefer it to have some purpose or buildup (either bg or otherwise) first, so that it's a scaffolding/development, not impersonal because I happen to be in the same room sort of thing.

[GangOfDolls]

Yeah, I mean, warning labels are helpful. Definitely. If you put on your +finger or +wiki, that your character is the wooooorst then I will decide appropriately if I want to take that in, in character.

I think essentially what this distills down to for me is giving most people a fairish shot ICly and as @Miss-Demeanor has already noted getting a one note feral trick pony back every time.

My PC: Hello, how are you? What's your name? I'm Bob. Lol, we're in a forest. This is weird, right?
Their PC: SNARL SNARL FROTH FROTH ARRRRRAWRAWRAWRAW CUTTING INSULT SMIRKY SMIRK
My PC: Cool. Catcha... later?

A few days pass.

My PC: Hello there again. Uh, are you interested in looking for wood for a fire with me?
Their PC: CUTTING INSULT SMIRKY SMIRK VEILED THREAT SNARL SNARL FROTH FROTH
My PC: Yeah.... uh. Peace.

Like, wtf, man?

[mietze]

I think too much of the time labels aren't really specific. Antagonist/not-nice covers a huge swath of things.

I find verbally aggressive asshole PCs to be entertaining, if they players are able to deal with being treated like an asshole/responses in kind ICly. (Which is, IME,definitely NOT a given. Even with a warning label about how they're such an asshole!). Physically aggressive PCs are fine with me to, but I'm a little careful with that now, because I dislike white knights who use every situation to jump in and "defend" someone before they have a chance to do so themselves or even get to play with the aggressor (one way that protagonist pc players in particular can become very ME ME ME ME scene dominators, actually!). Sexually aggressive PCs I'm very leery of. Not because I'm opposed to that (I'm neutral) but people who engage in rape drama on either end, or who need an audience for it, IME have been very problematic players in general. Not to say that I think everyone is, it just seems to be a strong majority, so I prefer to smile and nod around that. Insane/Extremely impulsive PCs can be okay and fun, as long as they don't OOCly freak the fuck out when ICly my PC declines to include them in sensitive/exacting stuff. (Also, unfortunately, not a given. Sometimes chaos is cool, but wanting sometimes there not to be chaos or escalation during an important mission is also a reasonable thing too, I think.) Budding roses who are really from the bottom barrel of onions are also kind of meh to me. (The people who desperately want you to peel back the layers of their PC because they're so complex and rewarding and won't it be enriching--but instead it's all about them and it's a little boring, and you'd better not ask for reciprocation, and instead of a complicated and wonderful story it's just kind of soggy/moldy and isn't good for much but to toss in the compost).

[faraday]

@Miss-Demeanor said in The 100: The Mush:

@faraday There's some truth to your statement. But you're also, I feel, ignoring a very important part of what's being said. Its not that there's AN antagonistic character, or even A FEW antagonistic characters. Its that some people are finding (or have found, for those of us no longer/not playing) that EVERY interaction is antagonistic, often unreasonably so.

I wasn't ignoring it, just presenting a slightly different viewpoint. I mean, as others have said - you can have a white knight domineering every scene just as easily as you can have an antagonist doing so. The problematic behavior isn't "being a white knight" or "being an antagonist", it's the domineering part. I've seen conflicting info about whether or not that's actually the case here.

As a corollary example: Imagine if I posted here complaining about a game, "ZOMG, there's nothing but bar scenes". Sure, that's a legitimate reason to not like a game. It's not my preference on what to play. Doesn't mean the people in the bar are doing anything wrong. I feel an air of WrongFun on this thread that rubs me the wrong way. Dunno, maybe I'm misreading it. I don't play there and have no pony in this race.

[Miss Demeanor]

@faraday Except nobody is claiming that any ONE person or character is 'domineering' a scene. Its an ATTITUDE, one that is a CHOICE made by those players for their characters to continue displaying. And frankly, I think it IS a little WrongFun when said attitudes are coming from a large number of the characters that are holding positions of power and/or authority and/or are major plot disseminators. That's FORCING people to deal with this attitude if they want to get anywhere or do anything.

Your own example: This isn't 'there's nothing but bar scenes, OMG'. This is 'Fuck, I can't do anything BUT bar scenes with out having to deal with Dick, Asshole, or Shitheel!'. When someone places themselves in a position of authority or power or even just PLOT... it no longer becomes JUST about their fun. They have a responsibility to ensure that others can still get their piece of the pie, too. That slice of pie shouldn't have to come with a cold topping of snark-filled shit, EVERY TIME.

Not every 'bad guy' or 'antagonist' has to be an asshole 100% of the time. Hell, most of the best ones, you don't even realize ARE the antagonist until pivotal moments. Yes, I realize this game deals with teens and everyone likes to equate that to holyfuck hormonal out of control kids. Not all teens are like that. And these aren't even true TEENS. They're adults, by their own cultures standards. These are people that would be assigned jobs, work them, would have responsbilities and duties beyond what most young adults today would have to deal with. Because they've been taught from BIRTH, that its not just about their life, its about the COLONY'S life. And yeah, they're criminals. But when spraypainting a sign or stealing a ration or slandering an elder publicly are all considered capital crimes? That's a pretty low bar for 'criminal'. So this 'oh but Jackoff Joe have to be an utter and complete dick ALL THE TIME because its my character's attitude' schtick? Smells pretty funky after you run into it the sixth time in a row.

[surreality]

@faraday said in The 100: The Mush:

I feel an air of WrongFun on this thread that rubs me the wrong way.

I do, too -- thing is, it's 'anyone who doesn't want to deal with 24/7 antagonism is doing it wrong' wrong-funning, along with a side order of slut-shaming and wish-fulfillment special snowflake accusations raining down at someone saying 'the uniformity of this experience is not one I enjoy'. None of which is cool.

It's head-scratch-worthy to me because white knights and black hats can just as easily be any of the above as the other.

[ixokai]

Man. There's a couple people being real verbose about how actively hostile everything is on this game and...

I don't really even have the words. Okay? Sorry? I mean, what?

Are these like serious, specific complaints about this specific game for real? Or are you channelling past experience and making a point?

Because, whoa. The level of constant malevolence and antagonism you're talking about is mystifying to me. I don't read ALL the logs, but I'm in all kinds of scenes and read many of them, and... what?

[Sunny]

Yeah, I haven't seen it either. I've seen a couple of asshole PCs, but it's not something that's been in my face at all. I guess one person randomly snapped at my PC, but she made a joke about it and that was the end of it, the next scene it went from 'asshole' to 'it's something we're joking about'. Maybe the dynamics have changed? I dunno.

[Lithium]

@Miss-Demeanor said in The 100: The Mush:

@ixokai I can say that the uncanny knack to run into all the antagonism ICly is a LARGE part of why I left the game. I have a stressful enough RL, I don't need my every interaction in a game to be some shit-slinging hatefest. There's 'conflict between PCs' and there's 'I knew it, I'm surrounded by assholes!'. When you can't step into a scene without SOMEONE going batshit insane over whatever, its no longer any fun to play a character. I was told staff would be 'monitoring' this behavior, but I left long before they started doing anything about it. And maybe my tolerance level is just running low, but given the bent of the current conversation, it looks more like my prediction was right and staff are far less likely to say anything while they're getting to have fun with what they want. Its that whole 'well I'm not having any problems, so I don't understand why you're upset' thing. What you're comfortable with and what someone else is comfortable with could be wildly different things. And hey, if you're running a game largely for your own preferences, that's your prerogative. But you should make that absolutely crystal clear from the get-go, not just shrug and wonder why people aren't having as much fun as you are.

This is exactly why I left. I tried to play a decent person and all I got were death threats, and one person saying I was attacking them oocly for oocly explaining my character didn't like bullies. Go figure.

[Deleted]

@lithium That seems to be a trend on a lot of the smaller, more insular games.

A sort of xenophobia runs rampant that involves outsiders' motives being constantly questioned and actions misconstrued so that everything you say or do is you being a big meanie head who needs to be run off with passive aggressive nonsense.

[gasket]

I think essentially what this distills down to for me is giving most people a fairish shot ICly and as @Miss-Demeanor has already noted getting a one note feral trick pony back every time.

My PC: Hello, how are you? What's your name? I'm Bob. Lol, we're in a forest. This is weird, right?
Their PC: SNARL SNARL FROTH FROTH ARRRRRAWRAWRAWRAW CUTTING INSULT SMIRKY SMIRK
My PC: Cool. Catcha... later?

A few days pass.

My PC: Hello there again. Uh, are you interested in looking for wood for a fire with me?
Their PC: CUTTING INSULT SMIRKY SMIRK VEILED THREAT SNARL SNARL FROTH FROTH
My PC: Yeah.... uh. Peace.

This nails it. I tried a Delinquent alt, and this is exactly what the experience was like. If there are, in fact, characters that don't lead with FUCK OFF YOU'RE NOT WELCOME, either they're never IC, or play exclusively with their own little circle.

[Miss Demeanor]

@ixokai Yes, these are serious, real problems that people are or have had with this exact game. You may want to address them rather than continue the befuddled act.

[Lithium]

@Miss-Demeanor Someone is apparently disbelieving that some of us have had problems there. So much so that simple comments of what happened to them get downvoted. Go figure. Case of to much invested maybe.

[ixokai]

@Miss-Demeanor said in The 100: The Mush:

@ixokai Yes, these are serious, real problems that people are or have had with this exact game. You may want to address them rather than continue the befuddled act.

My point is, how can I address something I've never seen? I join random scenes randomly. I have no select group of people I RP with (except the person my PC is dating), I RP both as a Grounder as a Delinquent, I jump at all chances at plot and this invovles a wide range of characters (who my PC likes, dislikes, is indiffernet to) and this massive everyone's-hostile-all-the-time is something I've never encountered.

I'm not saying you're lying, but I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Deleted]

I suspect Ixokai is one of those players you're all complaining about. That would explain his or her obliviousness.

[Lithium]

@Admiral If we knew their character name, we might be able to confirm or deny that.

[ixokai]

@Lithium said in The 100: The Mush:

@Admiral If we knew their character name, we might be able to confirm or deny that.

Cameron the Delinquent, and Que the grounder. I have never made any attempt at hiding who I am.

[Seraphim73]

@Lithium said in The 100: The Mush:

This is exactly why I left. I tried to play a decent person and all I got were death threats, and one person saying I was attacking them oocly for oocly explaining my character didn't like bullies. Go figure.

I've been trying to stay out of the way of this thread, but I know for a fact that Staff would very much like to know about anyone who is OOCly attacking other players for stating the preferences of their characters.

@gasket and @Miss-Demeanor While there are certainly still some characters snapping at each other (or at random other characters if they've had a particularly stressful day), I like to think that in general, some of the immediate grumping from characters has calmed down. That being said, my character obviously isn't in every scene, and sometimes, the stress gets to characters, so it does happen sometimes. Sorry it happened to you.

Now we do currently have a few too many "rebel" types for my preference, but I suppose that was just going to happen when the characters are all Delinquents to start... everyone gets a chance to rage against the man.

@Admiral and @Lithium , Ixokai has previously stated on this thread that he is the player of Cameron. In case it wasn't clear, I'm the player of Grey and the Staffer Orion.

[Miss Demeanor]

@ixokai You have players, right here. People that are on your game right now, or were recently (not me, I jumped ship a while back). You could start there. You keep acting confused and saying 'I don't see it'. That just upsets someone already upset even further. Its like saying that because you don't have a problem, the problem doesn't exist. Instead of continuing to go 'I don't get it', why not ask any of them what they think a possible solution could be? Poll your players. Talk to them.

Post a bboard telling everyone that you want to get their opinion of the game thus far. Give them the option to do it anonymously if that exists. Otherwise assure them that nobody will be penalized for their opinion but that you're simply seeking to gauge the current standing of the game. Ask them for solutions to any problems they bring up. Ask for their opinion. This sort of thing is important in every game, but doubly so in games where PVP, conflict, and drama are built into the story.

These are the same things I tried to pass along to you guys before I left, but you insisted you had it all under control. I don't mean to sound accusatory, but aren't you supposed to be a veteran of MUSHing? How is it this basic tenet of staffing never once came up? From what I understand, you guys actually hired on a staffer at your last game who's sole job was to field player concerns and basically act as a liason between staff and players. If you aren't comfortable doing it yourselves, there's nothing wrong with that, but bring in someone that is and will.