Posts made by faraday

@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

they don't want to waste on-line time having to fathom some IC excuse for why they were absent.

Yeah, I really don't understand where this became about wanting a favorable outcome or not wanting to fail. I don't care about that. What I care about is being forced to come up with a preposterous explanation (I fell asleep in the crawlspace with noise-canceling headphones on!) for something that is an extremely routine MUSH event (someone not being online at the exact moment you want them).

I was just trying to illustrate that sometimes OOC communication is done in the interests of IC continuity.

@surreality said in How does a Mu* become successful?:

The code of MUX focuses strongly on the Socializer player type.

Yeah, with a bare-bones grid and a lack of immersive code and PK-ing, In many cases it's an almost exclusive focus.

I agree with @Arkandel though. Success is in the eye of the beholder.

My most successful game was Battlestar Pacifica, which even at its peak never had more than 20 players logged in. I count it as a success because people still talk about it (mostly) fondly 10 years later. Hey... actually it was almost exactly 10 years later. Heh. Didn't realize that May was the 10-year anniversary. ANYWAY...

We told a good story. We established some paradigms that have been carried forward in several BSG games since. We built a community that (mostly) got along, and many of us still keep in touch now.

Those are not the same things that will define success for many other people.

@Groth said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

The basic principle is that most MUSH players are uncomfortable with the idea of their OOC circumstances having IC consequences for their character. They don't want their character to be considered a bad doctor because they happened to be unavailable when someone got hurt...

That's not the "basic principle" for me though. It's not about consequences, it's about continuity. I have no problem RPing that my character was ICly unavailable at that particular moment as long as it makes sense ICly. If you're on a small, isolated ship in deep space it doesn't make sense. Even if it's not isolated, it would be kinda weird if the doctor didn't return to the ship for three days without being in contact with anyone, yeah? (Unless they're in the IC habit of doing such a thing, or they went on vacation or whatnot...) MUSHes run 24/7 but nobody can be online 24/7. OOC comunication helps bridge that gap to maintain IC continuity.

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

But Bob's IC absence remains an IC fact, which I would react to. His IC absence has already become a part of the RP, whereas in a MUSH, the RP simply does not exist.

First off, let me say that this thread has been very interesting, seeing MUSH customs from an outside perspective and examining them critically.

I was thinking about that statement of yours though, and you may be interested to know that the desire for OOC communication and accommodation is not always based around wish fulfillment or stuff like that. Sometimes it's actually motivated by wanting to put IC first. Here’s an example similar to yours:

A, B and C are on a small ship crew (think Firefly). C’s the ship’s doctor. A and B do a scene where B gets hurt, and they go bang on the doctor’s door. C is online and in her room, but OOCly is AFK cooking dinner.

Now from a MUD perspective, as I understand it, the thing to do would be say: Well, we RPed knocking on the door and C didn’t answer, then we RPed looking around the ship for her and couldn’t find her, so we’ll just continue the scene with A in a ‘OMG we have no doctor’ panic trying to patch up B himself.

Maybe that works ICly, depending on the circumstances. But if it’s a severe injury, and the ship is in deep space, then there’s no logical IC reason why they wouldn’t be able to find the doctor. I mean, what, did she take a really long space walk? Even if she’s asleep, wouldn't they just open the door and wake her up?

So the desire for OOC communication here is because the doctor is not Schrodinger’s Cat. She is somewhere, ICly, regardless of where her player is. And if there’s an OOC way to figure that out - either by paging C or paging one of C’s alts, or firing off a google chat to her (not everyone does this, but among friends it's not unreasonable) - then that is considered preferable for the sake of the IC story.

This may seem like a contrived example, but something very similar actually happened to me. I was C, and was offline for a couple days, and returned to accusatory “OMG where were you, we needed you” RP. It was kind of silly.

@Thenomain said in Better Places Code:

@faraday

Because immersion.

Yeah, I get it - and I've coded some of that stuff too. It just still grates on me at some basic level.

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Groth, @faraday, those mentioning place code etc.: Wasn't it said above that these things aren't really used? Because if so that doesn't seem really relevant. I haven't seen them on the MUSH I'm playing, nor a follow command. They could be obscure, I could just be oblivious, idk.

The code to separate scenes isn't really used. However, the concept of having multiple scenes in the same location is definitely A Thing. It's just that without good code to help you out, keeping track of what's going on in one scene versus another is kind of a pain. Here's an example log of a party with about 10 people all doing their own various things in the same room, without places code.

@ixokai said in Better Places Code:

Yeah, that's not so bad. But does it actually improve anything? The scene will still be spammy and hard to follow if its got a bunch of people in it.

Personally I find it less hard to follow when I can pick out things that apply to me. I can skim the other conversations to make sure nobody's on fire, but pay more attention to the stuff in my corner of the room to respond to it.

Currently the only way I have to do that is setting up a client-side trigger to highlight stuff with my name in it. Which is great until someone says, "Joe nods back to the annoying girl..." and I totally miss his response.

I'm still betting on: you can't make it better. You're reinventing rooms.

I'll take the bet, but hey - I could be wrong

Unrelated aside, I share @Thenomain's hatred of phone code. WHY?

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Everyone in a room is expected to involve everyone there, and you cannot really move your character around without ending the RP taking place.

That's not entirely accurate. There are many situations in MUSHing where you have sub-scenes in a room (as discussed in the now-split places code thread) and often a scene that starts in one location will continue in another as players walk from point A to point B.

I think more specifically though, if you ask to join folks in a room, the implication is that you want to play with them, not start your own separate scene. If your characters want to go to the bar ICly, and the bar is OOCly taken up by another scene that can't accept more, there's absolutely nothing wrong with taking your scene to a "RP Room" and pretending it's the bar at a different time than the other scene is happening. MUSH time is fluid. As others have said, it's also not a cardinal sin to just go to the bar and take your chances. They are public rooms for a reason. It's not black and white.

@Arkandel I was less concerned with cutting spam than I was with organizing the spam, to make it easier to pick out the bits that are relevant to you.

But to your point... would it help if there was a consistent pattern? For example, stuff in your own place is always prefixed with ^^^^ PlaceName and stuff in other places is always prefixed with **** OtherPlaceName? Then you could configure your MUSH client to filter out crap in other places if you didn't care, or chuck it into a spawn window or something?

(The prefixes are just brainstorm-y examples; don't get hung up on them :))

@Lotherio said in Better Places Code:

The frustrating part is if you wanted something good to be overheard like 'positive ..... she's pregnant ... unwanted ...' but you get something stupid like 'she is .... again ... not that ...'

That is the main reason why I hate it. If I can see the original pose:

Joe gapes, "Wait, what? She's HERE?!" He realizes he said that a little too loudly and lowers his voice. "I thought she wasn't coming until Tuesday?"

I can choose appropriately how to react to it, instead of relying on some code to give me "Wait... she... Tuesday".

Also as a compulsive logger, it's a PITA when you've got someone taking the log for a group scene and they don't get the whole pose.

@ixokai The cluster idea is similar to what I was thinking. If poses and emits were automatically color-coded with the regular pose/emit commands, and all it did was change the color (or add a prefix or something) it would probably be pretty low-hassle.

On BSP the space code did emits kinda like that:

[RAPTOR_108: Trajan] Trajan's raptor is consumed by a brilliant flash of light. Only empy space remains.

[RAPTOR_216: Sunny] 216 turns into formation of a triangle as the three Raptors make their way and the countdown begins. The time for butterflies and jitters are pushed aside, this one is all or nothing. A fold in space begins as Sunny follows in tandem with 108 and the bright flash of light is all that is seen, then they are gone from sight.

I dislike mutter code but it's just a peeve. I prefer transparency, especially for the monitoring and logging reasons others have mentioned.

@Kestrel I see a big difference between "We you but half of us would have to bail then because the scene's just about its limit for our available attention right now." and "Scene too full." though. I can't help but wonder if your friend would have reacted the same if he'd gotten the full answer. Or if the A-F players had gone the extra mile and said: "But a couple of us are dropping out soon if you'd like to come in soon..." or "Happy to give you a raincheck though when it's not so late..." or whatnot.

On an unrelated aside, having a scene segue into "Let's go talk to Bob..." when Bob isn't available is a pretty common problem in MUSHing that you can learn to work around with practice. Then the scene doesn't have to come to an abrupt end, which also probably improves the overall outcome of a situation like that.

Before the other thread veered off into places code (especially since @ixokai and @Thenomain deleted their posts before I could quote them :)), this is something I've been contemplating for awhile.

I hate the old-school places code, and I know I'm not alone because I've literally not seen anyone use it since the late 90's. Things I hate:

• Using 'tt' to pose everything just pisses me off (and half the time I forget to do it)
• Two people are having a fierce argument at the other table but you can't see it because they're all using table-talk. So something that you should be reacting to ICly is either missed, or requires them to double-pose "Bob and Joe argue" to the main room.
• Having "Round Table" "Small Table" and "Square Table" with arbitrary space limits and nonsense like that is a pain to configure when you're building.
• Don't even get me started on the clunkiness of moving chairs from one table to another.
• Phantom people left behind when they log off / leave. The auto-clear code never worked right on any MUSH I was on.

But the idea of being able to have smaller scenes in a big room is a useful one. It's just the execution that kinda sucks.

For AresMUSH I basically have a clean slate, so it makes me wonder... how can we do this better? Make it more useful and dynamic? I have some ideas but I'd like to hear from the gallery.

@Thenomain said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

What, you can't sit at a table and have your own scene? Do people not use "places" code anymore?

I haven't seen a single soul use places code since, like, Y2K.

@ixokai said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

It's pretty asinine, from an outsider's perspective, because it's totally unnecessary by the admission of everyone on this thread who's explained why it's necessary.

I responded and I didn't admit, in any way shape or form, that it was unnecessary. I said it was a courtesy, not a rule. Courtesy is how life among different people is kept oiled and moving smoothly

Exactly. Courtesy is never "necessary", and nor is everyone ever going to agree on what constitutes courteous behavior. There are those who will get offended if you hold the door for them. There are those who will get offended if you don't hold the door for them. Few would argue it's necessary to ever hold the door for anyone. That does not make it "asinine" to suggest that holding the door is commonly considered a polite thing to do.

@ixokai also said:

If you're trying to litmus test for dickness like that, then all you're doing is proving you, yourself, are a dick.

Yeah, I don't ask because I'm testing to see if the other people are going to tell me 'no'. I ask because I honestly am not interested in RPing where I am not welcome. I'm giving them the no-offense-taken opportunity to say 'no' if my character doesn't fit in their scene for some good reason. I think it's polite to do this. Everyone else is entitled to disagree.

I also think it's polite to try to work people in when they ask, as per the second bullet. But there are legitimate situations where that's hard/awkward/impossible.

@NightAngel12 I have no idea what you're talking about with "strict 25% chance". The 2nd edition die rolls have a graded improvement for success chance with skill level. The 3rd edition numbers are almost the same.

There's a detailed analysis comparing it to other systems (WoD, D20) here, but here are the success levels for a routine roll with an average attribute at different skill levels:

• 1 - 57%
• 5 - 86%
• 8 - 94%
• 11 - 98%

@ixokai said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

because its a metapose. That's a powerpose. Metapose inserts "meta" commentary, stuff that can not be inferred from words, body language, etc; its meta. Powerpose takes the power away from the character's player to decide what their character is doing.

Yeah, I think some folks have conflicting definitions. There is no universal dictionary for this sort of thing.

My definitions are in line with yours:

Faraday rushes across the room, engulfing ixokai in a giant hug and spinning them around. "ixokai! Old buddy, old pal!"

Here I'm power-posing because I'm assuming that you let me hug you and spinning you. I wouldn't count that as a metapose. Here's a (silly) metapose:

Faraday forces a smile after ixokai's greeting. "I'm fine. How are you?" Fine? Yeah, right. She'd cried herself to sleep every night this week because her dog died.

Some metaposing can add atmosphere and convey emotions you might not be able to describe very well. But it's easy to get carried away, and it doesn't have to be a passive-aggressive dig to get eyes rolling.

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

What constitutes sensitive/private IC information on a MUSH other than TS?

The same sorts of secrets you might want to keep to yourself in RL. Confessing a crush on someone, plotting revenge, committing a crime, revealing you're a Vampire or a member of a secret organization, planning a surprise party, or - yes - TS. I've heard the phrase "OOC Masquerade" as @Lotherio mentioned, but the idea is pretty common even on games that don't have heavy PvP aspects.

I had my character react a certain way to something they found off-putting, for very IC reasons (though I found it great) — and received an OOC apology for the off-putting behaviour, with a clarification that it wasn't intended to be off-putting. Is this normal?

It's quite common. There are those out there who will assume "if you're playing a jerk, you must be a jerk", or "if you're being a jerk to me, you must not like me". I wouldn't say they're the majority, but they're common enough that folks will often make the sort of clarification you're alluding to - just in case.

So I ask, 'How widespread is kilt-wearing in Scotland? Will I be looked at funny there if I don't wear a kilt?'

Except I think it's more like "How widespread is kilt-wearing in Europe?" To which the answer is: "You'll probably be okay in Scotland, not be too out of place in the rest of the UK, and get really strange looks in Germany..."

MUSHes are astonishingly diverse. For instance, a lot of the players on this board mostly play WoD games. I've never played one, and routinely feel "Is that really a thing?!?" type culture shock when participating in discussions here. And I've been MUSHing for 20 years.

@Groth said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Avoid 'lurking' to watch a scene that you are not a part of unless you know the people pretty well. It sometimes creeps folks out.

Unless the MUSH in question has some form of recall command, I always lurk for a few poses to get an understanding of what the scene is about before posing in myself, anything else seems rather tricky and presumptuous.

Yeah I don't consider that 'lurking' - that's just waiting a few poses before jumping in, which is extremely common (and usually prefaced by the person saying "I'm doing this..."). I've seen people who'll just come down to watch scenes like they're bringing popcorn and watching the show. Some folks don't mind that - I was on Maddock for a long time where there was "watch" code for public places, and I tend to post most scenes as logs anyway - but there are a lot of people that are creeped out by it.

@Thenomain Fair enough. On the games I've been on, there are only a couple of channels and the 'gag' command lets you silence them temporarily for spam/annoyance without actually leaving them. So it's not really a big thing. Anyway, I can totally understand the annoyance. Can't quite understand those who pass up games just because the channel system irritates them, but I guess everyone's entitled to their pet peeves.