Posts made by faraday

@ThatGuyThere said:

Trust me I have written background for modern games where the player was from a major city with extensive public transportation just so I did not have to buy drive one.

Heh. It's a rare game that truly needs "Drive" as an action skill. Unless you're routinely doing James Bond style car chases or whatnot. Swimming is another one I see sometimes. Forcing people to buy points in pointless "action" skills they don't need or want just dilutes the focus from the important ones and exacerbates the difficulty of balancing the number of points available to folks.

@Roz said:
but also not stuff that I think would be comfortably done on an on-game bbs.

Out of curiosity, why not? If your BBS has the mod that lets people reply inline to a post, what would prevent you from having the same discussion on the in-game board?

@Roz said:

For other instances of things, we're free with utilizing +rolls and letting GMs kind of mold the scene around the mutation use.

Yeah, you've hit upon a lot of the things that can be modeled using the combat variables - attacks, defense, initiative, damage resistance and damage. But a lot of superpowers just don't relate directly to combat, and thus I'm not sure how you would model coded effects for them. Even if you could, it would be highly system-dependent, and I'm not convinced you could make it generic in a satisfactory way.

@Roz said:

I can't really imagine how you would use a forum for the functionality of a game wiki. Wikis are for information and forums are for discussion.

Exactly. They are very different tools with very different purposes. You can certainly set up a wiki poorly, but trying to do the same thing on a forum would be even worse IMHO.

As for having both? Unless the web forums are somehow integrated with the in-game BBS, having two always seemed to be redundant to me. Players always seem to gravitate to the in-game forum.

@Coin said:

Then part of my feedback would be an inclusion of that sort of thing. Simple systems are great, but the problem is that they tend to fall apart when you introduce more options (naturally).

Thanks for the suggestion. The problem I've run into when discussing this with others before is that it's very hard to do generic "powers". Each system tends to have very specific expectations, which will need very specific code.

@Coin said:

P.S. How does +combat deal with characters who have specific powers that function turn to turn and can be used or not? Do those have to be accounted for each roll? What's up with that? If everything is automated it feels like there might be a gap in using strategy when it comes to your character actions.

There is some strategy involving your selection of attack (normal / called shot / full-auto / disarm / keep their heads down) and your selection of stance (evasive / cautious / aggressive / etc. )

But FS3 combat was designed for Battlestar, with an eye towards working for modern games too. Thus there really aren't any "powers" like the kind you speak of. Someone would have to code that in and figure out how they wanted it to work.

@Thenomain

Well for example, I hear about how awesome the combat system on these Battlestar games are. I look at the chargen document and I look for the awesomeness in it. I don't think this excitement is a fluke, but I don't see any leading examples as to why it wasn't a fluke.

Frankly I don't think that it's the RPG system that makes it awesome. It's just the fact that the code enables you to do these massive combats with some modest amount of flexibility. Actually, +combat started out implemented with FUDGE on Battlestar Pacifica. I switched it over to FS3 later.

The combat section of the old player's guide might be of interest there. Most of the mechanics have stayed the same throughout the editions.

I have gotten lots of positive feedback about how fast/easy chargen and chargen review is. That, honestly, is the primary motivation for FS3. The combat was just because I happen to use FS3 on combat-heavy Battlestar games and needed a way to not go more insane.

I've been getting lost recently as people talk about FS3 as both a role-playing game system and a coded system, when it's not fully either of these things.

LOL, yes. FS3 itself is a RPG framework, as you said. There's some code that provides one implementation of FS3, which has easy hooks for numerous customizations.

And just to add more confusion to the mix - folks have started talking about my entire softcode package as "the FS3 codebase", even though they're really only tangentially related.

At any rate, a fresh set of eyes is more than welcome.

@Thenomain I think what you're looking for is something akin to the FS3 Storyteller's Guide. That's 1st edition documentation because, frankly, what I found was that nobody read it and so I never bothered to update it after 1st edition And it's not the greatest writing either. But I will concede that implementing the framework could be better if you know what it's good at / not so good at.

@Apos said:

One alternate suggestion would be automatically calculate what the character would have cost in experience points to generate their starting character for them, start them at negative or positive afterwards as a result of the pool.

Yes, @Misadventure said something similar earlier in the thread and I agree that's a reasonable compromise.

Also bear in mind that if you really feel strongly that chargen and XP should have the same kind of progression, you can always make XP linear. It's just a matter of tweaking the numbers in a configuration table. I favor that far more than changing chargen.

@bored said:

I don't think you're really engaging this honestly (and thought you'd stopped caring).

You're right, I stupidly allowed myself to get drawn back into the debate. My bad. At any rate, I've been 100% honest. Whether you choose to accept my reasons/philosophy is your choice.

@bored said:

Right, and an issue not being 100% fixable is a reason to discount any attempt to fix it.

Certainly not. We just disagree on what, precisely, the issue is. The thing you want to "fix" is working just fine from my POV. That is not to say it's a perfect system for everyone. You're totally entitled to hate it, just as I hate D20. Pick any system - WoD, FUDGE, FATE, Cortex, D20, Millenium's End, Castle Falkenstein, Shadowrun, Mechwarrior, 7th Sea, Aces & Eights... those are just some of the ones on my shelf. I've studied all of them. None of them is perfect. They each make tradeoffs based on their core values. Find the system that's best for you. But I doubt you'll find one that can't be "exploited" in the manner you describe. If you do, I'd sincerely love to hear about it.

@Alzie said:

I await the day you find a system that involves numbers that can't be exploited. Even gambling can be exploited. I've got plenty of years to wait.

If I could upvote this 100 times I would

But seriously - you can make up a ridiculous character in any system. You can also get yelled at by crazy staffers for any number of crazy reasons. Blaming the skill system seems like blaming the hammer when someone picks it up and whacks you with it. It's a tool. Using it wisely is up to the person holding it.

@Warma-Sheen said:

If you can have any skills you want and you just have to oversell your character's background, what's really the point? Fresh out of flight school? Okay, top of his class, experienced in multiple training and missions. Now that's fine on the game? I never understood that. If I can write any background I want, what does it matter what background I write?

It doesn't matter what you write, as long as you write something reasonable.

Frankly I don't look at the numbers, I look at the words: Novice-Proficient-Veteran-Master. Which fits your character? Fresh from flight school would normally be a high novice / low proficient. But if they were bullseyeing womprats in Beggar's Canyon in Grandpa's T-16 since they were 12... that would justify a higher rating.

Viper pilot with demolitions? WTF? Oh, Viper pilot who got his start in a mining crew before joining the war effort. Or Viper pilot who used to be a Sagittaron "freedom fighter". Sure, I'm down with that.

Of course it's all subjective, but I try to be as fair and consistent as humanly possible.

@bored I handle chargen very differently on my games. I couldn't care less how many 4's you have, numerically. What I care about is whether your skills reflect your background. And it's never "shame on you, you evil powergamer..." it's always "your Gunnery seems a bit high for someone fresh out of flight school..."

Anyway, I'm kind of exhausted arguing about it. You think it's a bad design, I disagree. You're entitled to your opinion and we're not going to convince each other. Let's just agree to disagree and move on.

Agreed - Identities. If I have multiple chars I want them in separate windows.

FWIW, I did some research on this and informal polling when I was designing the AresMUSH Player Handles system, which is the same basic idea. What I learned:

• Many folks strongly dislike the idea of an OOC identity for privacy reasons, so any mail/bbs/etc. would still have to accommodate people who only have character bits.
• Changing the logon process - like expecting you to log in with your player identity and then choose a character - puts many people off.

Not a huge sample size, but something to consider.

I opted to keep things centered on the characters, but allow folks to optionally link characters to and broadcast their OOC identity.

@bored said:

Well, skills at 1-12 is really confusing, IMO, in terms of what is 'normal' what is 'master',

Agreed, it never worked well.

FWIW I considered your chargen/xp example using 3rd ed. Bearing in mind that aptitudes don't cost points and you get 4 interests for free... that basically means that you'll have 20 points to spread among 10 or so action skills (more like 6 or 7 since not all of them will apply to every char).

I really don't think min/maxing will be as big of a problem as what you've seen on those other games. I could be wrong.

Regardless, if your players are coming through Chargen feeling like it's some kind of Sophie's Choice, then IMHO you've got your points and/or skill list set up poorly.

@bored Obviously I have no say in how FS3 games are run. But I don't care what system you're talking about... 3 skills at "master-elite" level plus 8 skills at "professional-I-could-do-this-for-a-living" level seems really jarring to me. It's even more jarring in FS3, which recommends a lean skill list (8-12 skills total). But hey, it's their game. They can configure it any way they want.

@Thenomain - Sorry if I'm being dense, but I'm not sure quite what "rules" you're looking for. Dice mechanics? Chargen instructions? As you say, FS3 is a framework not a complete game, so I'm not sure that what you're looking for actually exists.

The documents I have are meant as player-oriented help files. They talk about what skills to take and what/when to roll but don't really go into the details about how the dice work. That's all handled behind-the-scenes by the code.

@bored - Whoa, geez. No need to get insulting.

Firstly, you're taking an extreme chargen example that would never in a million years be approved (or shouldn't, anyway), and nor have I seen anyone even try. Most players I've seen are very adept at making well-rounded characters out of the gate. Those that don't get smacked down in chargen. Character review is an assumed part of the equation. If an app staff draws the line at "whoa, obvious twink" and not at "hmm, not a very well-rounded character", that's their problem. Code can't fix people making poor decisions.

Secondly, even in the default configuration it's more expensive to raise skills than what you have there. It's 1XP per week with higher level costs. On my games I usually make it even more expensive than the default.

Thirdly, giving free background skills at chargen (which 3rd edition does) eliminates some of the pressure to sacrifice fluffy hobbies for useful skills. So does having a leaner skill list, so there aren't so many you feel obliged to take.

What you're complaining about is extremely configurable in the current system without making chargen more complicated.

@Thenomain Sorry, you're right. I had assumed some familiarity with the old system.

For specific games using 2nd edition, there's BSG Deimos, Game of Bones and Star Wars Omens. Of course, each has their own customizations.

You could compare BSG Deimos to the sample 3rd edition battlestar game stats at the bottom of the 3rd edition article.

The official 2nd ed docs are here but they're more of a wikidot template for you to adjust for your own game.

@Misadventure said:

Could it calculate the XP value of the character, if everything had to be bought from 0?

Sure. But giving folks a ton of XP right out of chargen would be a problem for the XP cap. The cap's in place to keep someone from raising a whole bunch of skills overnight.

Might be better to do as a multiplier. More XP value in chargen means you earn less each week. Or something like that.