Posts made by faraday

@groth said in Talking 'Bout Ares:

That's not really your fault. Commands starting with @ are hardcoded and commands starting with + were coded for that specific game so which commands start with which not only changes game to game but also changes within the same game as the coder gets around to implementing their own preferred version of default commands.

It's even more complicated than that. On any given Penn game you could have:

WHO and help (no prefix)
@desc (@-prefix for a modifying command)
&attr (for setting an attribute)
+help (for game-specific commands)
rumours (a local command that just happened to not have a prefix)

The players literally don't care where the code lives. The prefixes don't help them in the slightest, and can be VERY confusing when there are overlaid commands (help vs +help or @desc vs +desc that do completely different things).

It's just a bad user experience. Full stop. A command line interface is bad enough without adding extra complexity on top of it just to make it easier for the coder to figure out where the code is running from.

@reason No offense meant or taken. I was just responding to your assertion that it was solely a matter of personal preference. I see it as a usability issue, which goes a bit deeper.

@reason said in Talking 'Bout Ares:

For example, my own preferences include the reservation of special characters to denote contextual elements of the associated commands.

Yes, that aptly describes the historical significance of the different prefixes. However, my experience tells me that the average player doesn't actually care whether something is implemented as a global, local, or character-specific command, and find the prefixes confusing and non-intuitive.

So while everyone is certainly entitled to their personal preferences on the matter, the feedback I've received is overwhelmingly in favor of removing the prefixes - to the point where players complain when they have to go back to other codebases that still use them. So from a usability perspective, I respectfully disagree that they it is advantageous to include it as a game-specific option.

Side note - Ares also doesn't have the necessity of differentiating between the built-in @desc and the game's custom +desc. There's just one "desc" global, which you can override with custom code if you need to.

Like you said, though, there are other platforms that do this if it's really important to your game vision.

@reason said in Games:

So only configurable in a sense of the word that includes hacking apart the parser.

I mean... the parser, hundreds of commands and help files... I genuinely cannot fathom why you would want to do a massive amount of work, take a step backwards in usability, and alienate many/most existing Ares players, all for no tangible benefit. But technically, yes, it's possible.

@betternow said in Games:

The games are both Ares, but their CULTURES are entirely opposite. That is in no way due to the codebase, but to the staff and players and how they prefer to play.

Exactly. Though to be fair, it is somewhat related to the server. Before Ares those async players would've just been out of luck and had to take their game-related RP off the game. So would many of the work/school-slow players.

And they did! Through the years, I have had so much RP over google docs, email, private servers where we could just stay logged in for ages posing intermittently, even LiveJournal (to date myself). Async and slow-paced RP on MUSHes has always been a thing. The only thing that changed with Ares is that now that RP is happening on the game. And since it's easier, more players are taking advantage of it to play in a way that's more convenient for them.

Which seems like a really weird thing to get upset over honestly.

@Ganymede and co. please feel free to move like the last page or so of posts to a different thread. "Why are so many new games Ares" or something. I feel bad threadjacking but it's an interesting convo.

The title could maybe use a facelift - why do people think Ruby is harder to learn than python, or something. But the first paragraph does seem to clearly frame it as a Ruby vs. Python/softcode question.

I think it's also useful to note that within programming education circles, there are some languages that are objectively considered easier for beginners than others. (to reiterate - easiER not EASY).

This could be due to features of the language itself (a strongly-typed language like C# has extra hurdles than a weakly-typed one), the environment needed to run it in (Javascript can be experimented with straight in a browser using tools like jsfiddle), and other factors (block languages like those used in Scratch and code.org are visual and great for beginners).

There's not universal agreement on this, of course, but there is general consensus. And from that angle, both Ruby and Python are considered good "beginner" languages. No programming educator on earth would recommend starting off learning programming with a Lisp-based language like softcode.

(Site note: That doesn't mean softcode is a bad language - on the contrary, it's quite impressive and serves its intended purpose well. It's just such an unusual paradigm that it's not a great foundation for learning other programming languages. And I think that's why people struggle a bit with the softcode->Ruby/Python transition.)

@Lotherio Double post since I was on phone earlier and wanted to expand on what @derp said. Also sorry if I came off snobbishly. I was aware of the comments Derp was referencing about Ruby specifically and just assumed that was the basis of the question.

Coding is absolutely not easy, and struggling to learn to code does not in any way, shape, or form reflect on one's general intelligence. It is doubly challenging when you have to deal with something like dyslexia or dyscalculia on top of everything. I hope it is not able-ist or patronizing to say how impressed I am that you have managed to learn to code as well as you have demonstrated in our chats on the Ares discord. (If it is, I apologize in advance.)

It's also important to keep in mind that when learning to code for the newer MU platforms like Ares or Evennia, you're not just learning Ruby/Python. You're also learning the MUSH-specific classes and the "Ares/Evennia" way of doing things. You're learning the database stuff and web stuff. So yeah... making a "hello world" command may be comparatively easy, but learning how to make or modify a complex system can be a lot.

It's a lot in MUSHcode too. You (and other experienced MU coders) have just had the advantage of many years to learn it and now you're starting from scratch.

@lotherio said in [What's So Hard About Ruby?](

It implies it should be easy to program/code.

Coding is not easy and I don’t believe anyone here was meaning to imply that it was. My comment at least was merely comparing ruby to other programming languages in the context of the original question.

It took you years to get as familiar as you are with Mu Code I believe it would take less time to gain that same skill in Ruby. That doesn’t mean it’s easy

IMHO - nothing.

I've been a professional programmer for over 20 years, and it's no harder than any other language I've ever seen, and easier than most.

I actually started Ares in Python and had a hard time getting it off the ground. Python is way more finnicky about little things like indentation that can throw off folks who aren't used to programming. It also didn't support the dynamic loading properties that I needed for Ares. It's a fine language overall - I've got nothing against it. It just wasn't the right tool for the job.

The only genuine criticism I've seen about Ruby is that it has many ways of doing the same thing, whereas other languages (including Python) are more opinionated and force you to do things a certain way. I mean... I guess I can see where that might throw some people off? But personally I find that as a selling point, not a down side.

@reason said in Games:

Sure. And no doubt that's configurable under the hood somewhere.

No. Ares commands have no prefix by design (because as @Derp pointed out, it's kinda silly to have multiple versions of the same command.) The parser just ignores it if you type + or @.

@reason said in Games:

It's mostly been impressed on me that Ares allows for A) easy to ship a game concept, B) web-based asynchronous, gridless gameplay.

A is correct, B is not. Ares is a MUSH, and has a grid and client-based commands same as Penn/Tiny. It just ALSO has a web portal, temproom RP, and asynchronous RP support. Ares just gives people options. What seems to bother people the most is that players are using those options to play in different ways than they want to.

@seraphim73 said in Games:

Can't help you with the slew of arcane commands that start with @ and + -- when I first started with Ares I typed them by pure muscle memory, and it's taken me a couple of years to not type them instinctively.

I mean, you can put in the + or @ if you want. Ares doesn't care. @desc, +desc and just desc are all the same command.

@shaggy said in Games:

I mean no disrespect.

Just for the record - none taken. Ares is not meant to be everything to everybody (no system could be). Polite "I prefer chocolate to your vanilla" or even constructive criticism doesn't bug me.

I do get a bit put off when folks (not you specifically) blame the system for what individual games and players choose to do with it. But fighting that war is getting tiresome, and this thread is already probably veering too far off topic.

I have no games to suggest.

One of the main reasons I made Ares:

You want more variety? Somebody else needs to solve that problem.

@songtress said in Alternative Lords & Ladies Settings:

it was more me pinning for the pretty colored clothing objects with their pretty ansi colors and descriptions. Vs. Say the actual how you get there.

Maybe I'm not following then. Without the "how you get there" - you just use the desc command and put in whatever ansi you want? If some other tailor char is providing the clothing, they can provide you the fancy desc of what it looks like.

If you just want an inventory tracking system to control who's got fancy hats and who doesn't, you don't need immersive code for that. You just need an OOC way to assign clothes to people.

@runescryer said in Alternative Lords & Ladies Settings:

My only issue, and this is just my opinion, is that while FS3 is perfect for a rules light narrative setting, it breaks down in settings where there's a great deal of emphasis on special abilities (supers, high fantasy).

Yes, you're right - FS3 is not geared for that. But as I said before, Ares and FS3 are completely independent. There are already plugins for several other skill systems (Fate, FFG, Cortex, Traits, and even a generic TTRPG freeform die roller), and you can build your own. The issue isn't which dice system you use to resolve your conflicts; it's whether you want other systems for the players to interact with outside the confines of scene-centric roleplay.

@songtress said in Alternative Lords & Ladies Settings:

Honestly i am torn. I miss 'Firan' in that context, but I also hated Firan's rigidity (I love the pretty custom clothing), but omg, I hated being charged 1000 stenis to go to the bath house so I didn't suffer social score loss).

Let's look at crafting for example. Your PC is a carpenter.

In the old-school MUSH paradigm, like Firan - you might need to go out into the forest room and +chop some wood for awhile. Then you go back to your workhop where you +craft table. Then you go to the marketplace and +list table=100 to put your table up for sale, or maybe you just RP a sale and use some kind of sell code to exchange it for Bob's silver.

That's all hard to model with Ares' scene/web focus, but that doesn't mean you can't do a crafting/economy system. It just means you need to do it differently. For example, resource gathering could be done with some kind of "action point" allocation that got you wood periodically. Then you could interact with a craft global command and crafting web dashboard that let you manage your resources and inventory. And instead of a marketplace room you could have a market global command and web dashboard that lets you buy things from other players.

It's not the same experience. It's more strategic than immersive, and for that reason I completely understand why it's not what every game will be looking for. Rhost and Evennia are great options if you're looking for something that's more old-school immersive.

@testament FS3 and Ares are completely independent. You can use Ares with any system you want, including any edition of DND.

The broader issue is whether your game requires "immersive" components like crafting code, economy code, magic effects, auto-combat resolution, etc. All that would be a massive investment in any codebase. Ares just has a secondary consideration of how those systems would interact with the web portal and scene system.

Players in Ares interact with scenes and systems, not rooms and objects. So you could absolutely do some kind of 5e game in Ares. Whether it's worth the effort to fulfill your vision is gonna depend on what you're looking for.

@ominous said in FFG L5R:

I am saying that, IF you make a social archetype available, you MUST supply a means to make that archetype viable in relation to other archetypes.

Yes, and the 97 bazillion pages of those threads I linked to are the argument(s) between that position and the position that no, you actually don't because social stuff is inherently and fundamentally different than non-social stuff, regardless of what archetypes are available. And I will try to refrain from saying any more because I really don't want to re-hash that subject again.

Cue the social combat holy war. Or just copy paste from the countless other times we've gone round and round and round on this.

@reason said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:

@derp Open to checking it out. Does it have enough crunch?

Anarchy was designed for the convention crowd so you could get somebody interested in Shadowrun without them needing to learn the whole system. As such it is self-described as "rules-light" and probably closer to Fate than core SR.

Do I think it would be better for a MUSH? Heck yes. Core SR is way too heavyweight to be well-suited to MUs. Is it crunchy? IMHO, not at all.

ETA - I think this review describes it well:

Catalyst Game Labs recently released Shadowrun: Anarchy, a rules-light, narrative-focused re-imagining of the entire game. Powered by the same bold and dynamic system that forms the backbone of the Valiant Universe Role-playing Game, Shadowrun: Anarchy swaps out Shadowrun’s tactical rules for fast-paced, immersive, collaborative storytelling.

@too-old-for-this said in Autism and The MU* Community:

Seriously, if you knew how much time I spend having to find the EXACT RIGHT pair of socks out of all of my socks... I will literally wear a single pair multiple days in a row because I know they fit together and I might just cry if I have to keep trying to re-match all my socks together every day...

I found one model of socks that I can tolerate. My entire(*) sock drawer is just two packs of these. Since they're all the same, I don't have to worry about matching them up. It takes me about a year or so before enough start getting holes, then I just buy two new packs.

(*) We don't talk about the weird special occasion socks stuffed in the back that I hate to wear because they're not the right socks.