Posts made by Ghost

@Ganymede I hear you on the preemptive bans, but still over time I'd asked myself "If I were running a game would I preemptively ban people?" I think I've even said once on these forums that I'm not entirely sure I'd ban Spider. Oh boy did I get some heat for that.

I think you have some very abusive players with a history of behavior that borders on the illegal or unsafe, with activities like stalking, blackmail, etc. But I'm not entirely sure I'd enforce a perma-ban on a player who was disliked for being overbearing or unfair (such as Spider was accused of) if they seemed genuine in understanding the past and just wanted to play nice with others. I'm a forgiving sort. I'd rather treat a person like a person, but then act when they got out of line.

In fact, over the years in the hobby I kind of learned that the people who are able to mea culpa and openly commit to doing better may be worth betting on more than the people who threaten you if you associate/allow X player around under penalty of being called some kind of rape apologist on a forum.

Hrm. I dunno.

I think the one thing everyone in the community can agree on is that if there's evidence of serious misuse/abuse that making that available to the public as a "stranger danger" warning is a good thing.

Outside of that, there are assholes, and plenty of people spend a lot of time performing assholish behavior whilst pointing the finger at others claiming that other person is an asshole. It's a highly secular environment where entrenched people get away with bad behavior, and it all comes down to which camp you're in, which person's feathers you don't want to ruffle, etc. The number of cases of players simply being shitty towards each other and then camping up to avoid accountability for it far outweighs the actual number of cases of "stranger danger" type alarms.

I think I'm in the camp that until specific people leave or "age out", this is simply the way the hobby/community is going to be until the inevitable point in my lifetime that this form of entertainment will expire due to knowledge loss (inability to stand up hosts) and lack of player life cycle.

Edit: My general point was "ousting the assholes from the community" requires behavior change to a good number of people, not just the "usual suspects". There are too many people who behave badly who comport themselves as untouchable. It's a no-win situation.

@hobos said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

how easy it is to paint people with unfavorable rumors in a way that is unfair and untrue, just based on who is or is not in the dominant friendship circle.

Pretty much.

Last night I was alerted to that one of my fans took a reference I made to the literary use of Comedian's smiley face button^ in Watchmen as support for a rapist. Yikes. That's how hard some people try to stretch things.

I don't really know what else to say anymore other than that there are people engaging in ACTIVE attempts to belittle, smear, and slander others, and a number of them apparently (mind-bogglingly) do so with the entitlement of being the moral authority. Maybe people should start to pay attention to those who are unwilling to stop this unethical shit.

^ Alan Moore is a fucking genius.

@simplications said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

The premise of a forum warning people about bad actors seems thin. These are text games that provide anonymity. Any one of the bad actors can join and make a new character. What outs their identity to the forum is the actions that they take from that point on. They do some fucked up stuff and people who hear about it go "Oh hey, that's fucked up in a way very similar to Well Known Jerkface. it must be them." People on the forum all agree. Got'em.

At what point did the forum protect someone? If Jerkface gets banned from the game he's on, it's not because he's somehow been identified as Jerkface without having engaged in bad behavior. The identification requires the bad behavior to occur. The behavior, and the toll it takes on the victimized, has not been prevented.

In order for that behavior to be reported, it has to have been done to or in the presence of someone that is reporting it. Did they skip reporting it to the game runners and instead came to the forum instead? This doesn't make any sense.

Part of the reason I chose the handle "Ghost" is because given the anonymity of the hobby and these forums, I've always found it a little tongue-in-cheek funny this concept of "tracked identity".

I mean, nothing is keeping me from logging onto a game and claiming to be some "well known jerk" like Spider or Cullen and creating waves of panic/board postings and adding to their "legends", just like it would be so simple for someone to join a game, claim they're "Ghost from MSB" and do all kinds of shit that I wasn't actually doing. I guess it's my little version of "The Comedian" from The Watchmen's smiley face. I've joked a few times that I've given other people the login/ID information for this forum and that it may not actually be me typing this right now. This login could have changed hands multiple times and no one would have known.

In the end, all you can really do is address the actual bit in the present-tense and get rid of them, because really anyone could be anyone. Tracking it on a forum IS somewhat thin. (ex: THIS bit currently on THIS game is doing THESE actions)

@Derp I think that a lot of the time people use the term "witch hunt" in the connotation of "This person is being a zealot who will punish someone whether or not they are guilty".

I think there's a greater connotation to "witch hunt" that a lot of people don't recognize, and that's the added event of the mass hysteria that comes with normalizing this sort of "witch hunt" behavior. That being:

• Witch hunts will remove the most evil and vile scary witches to keep everyone safe!

• ...and then move on to people accusing others of being witches over misunderstanding
• ...and then move on to dozens more witch hunts that prove we need to be defensive against witches
• ...and then move on to unliked people being branded witches
• ...and then move on to pesky people who threaten to expose adultery being branded as witches
• ...and then move on to likely having ZERO witches for months but just to be sure some 20 innocent people got burned in the effort to ensure that there are, in fact, no witches.

I feel like the MU community is at some stage of that; somewhere in the middle. I think throughout time and the way people have unknowingly defended people (who lied to friends and said they weren't doing bad things and were later revealed to be actual, bad people), there's a worry that ACTUAL abusers will be left unchecked for weeks/months. It's not an unrealistic fear. Most abusers are defended by staff until actual receipts prove it, and in some cases they're STILL protected by staff, so I get why people would be so adamant to keep watch out for these particular people.

However, I think it's also created a "trial by mob" environment where the ability to defend yourself against accusations made without receipts (and without receipts to defend yourself) leaves many innocent people with an inability to prove that they do not, in fact, commune with demons. How can anyone prove that? It's your word against them, so JUST like in the "witch burning times" people spent a LOT of time entrenching themselves in little groups to create an atmosphere of "my word is greater than yours". And then, just like in the "burning times" these little groups used those "popularity currency" points to accuse their enemies, outsiders, and competitors in ways that would see them run off or harmed, leaving them further unchecked.

It's funny how humans enter these phases over and over again, only to repeat the same behaviors and mistakes in the heat of the moment like it's totally different this time and then reflexively look back and realize that they fell prey to the same mass hysteria bullshit that's driven witch-hunt cultures from the Mayan Apocalypse to the Witch Hunts to the Werewolf Hunts to the Spanish Inquisition to the McCarthyism Communist Hunts to the Anti-Dungeons and Dragons "Satanic Panic".

I just think people are caught up in a form of that in this community and forest/from trees don't quite see how bad it's gotten.

@Derp Gotcha.

@Kestrel said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

@Ghost, though? I'm still waiting for receipts. Who have I bullied on these boards?

<groan>

Give it a rest.

Slow news day apparently.

Edit: AH. I see what happened, here. Since the Hog Pit was made available for viewing again Kes went back into the history to grab links and recant previous arguments and try to renew them as current arguments. Not a slow news day, but a lot of free time and an "oh I should have said this <types up OH YEAH! EAT THIS post>

I think you're putting entirely too much work into trying to scry and unveil the super nefarious secret agendas of people chatting on an internet forum on their cell phone in between WWE2K22 YouTube clips.

@Seraphim73 said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

You realize that what you're terming as paranoia is a response to people who have actually been tricked into interacting with people who have been creepers/abusers to them in the past, right? Denigrating that totally reasonable response like this is victim-blaming. It's horrible. You can do better.

Calm yourself down there, guy. No need to carpet-bag and escalate that. So horrible.

Of course people who have been actually stalked and harassed shouldn't be tricked into the kill zone of their prior abusers. There ARE some pretty crazy and dangerous people in the hobby. Sure. Watch out for them. There are, however, people who take this to extreme ends and stalk/track the whereabouts of people who disappointed them, which games they're on, which PBs they like to use, etc.

There are absolutely valid cases, but there are also cases where it does more damage than good.

But, of course, you're welcome to take that as an intended malleus maleficarum-level insult to abuse victims or whatever...

@Ganymede July 1st must have felt nice.

Note: This comment was in the spirit of "After a lengthy, stressful period it must have been refreshing to take a break" and not anything negative about the forum itself. I recently left a job that had been a source of stress and the moment I realized I was free of some of those responsibilities, the relief-sigh was glorious.

@Ganymede said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

@faraday said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

It's like Thanksgiving with a dysfunctional family. You need Grandma to play peacemaker, or to rule with an iron fist (like Mal in Firefly: "Walk away from this table.").

Clearly, you're Grandma, y'know.

Just pointing that out.

Says the one who actually has the power to tell people to leave the dinner table.

You could be a candidate for grammaw too.

@Kestrel said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

Yeah I liked how you implied my throwaway troll comment makes me part of some secret cabal or that I've bullied you personally

Uh. What? I think you're reading into things quite a bit, there. I'm getting the feeling what you infer is more related to what you want to seek conflict about rather than what may be actually implied. However let me reassure you that I do not believe you are part of some kind of secret society cabal and that while I think you are a bully, I don't feel bullied or intimidated by you.

In fact, should you care to know, I think you have an attachment to this sort of negativity/conflict and the way you talk to others is probably more damaging to you than it would ever be to me.

While I've never been perfect (nobody is), I find it reassuring that your evidence that I'm some big bad bully is from like five years ago. Regardless, if I'm a bully I recommend you put me on ignore and stop seeking me out for conflict. I will also say that if you have any sort of baggage related to those events from years ago, PLEASE don't carry it around. I've introspected and revisted myself in terms of who I talk to on these forums and how.

I apologize if any of that stuff regarding that intersect community still sticks in your craw. While I disagreed with it, I was out of line on how I responded to it, so I apologize.

@Kestrel said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

I'm a person who's been paying attention to the discussion on both of these boards and over on @Ghost's Reddit thread

Oh that's riiiiiiiiight I'd almost forgotten.

After that thread was necro for 3 weeks or so Kestrel decided to "check in" and throw barbs on that because things must have been boring.

Poke. Poke. Poke.

That's what's going on here and I don't think it's constructive at all.

@ZombieGenesis said in Street Fighter The RPG:

@Ghost said in Street Fighter The RPG:

I mean a lot of players don't like PVP...

It's funny because there is an entire sect of MUdome that thrives on it, Transformers players. It's almost unthinkable to open a Transformers game without combat code. I think the problem with most of the players in the part of the community we know is that they're WoD players and, in WoD, losing a fight generally means you're dead.

When it's just another tick in the L column though? It's not so bad.

I seem to remember that there was a game that had a fighting system and allowed characters from a multiverse of video games: Street fighter, tekken, blaz blue, king of fighters, mortal kombat, etc. I forget what it's name is. I almost joined it at one point.

@ZombieGenesis said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

Remember that there are actual people on the other end of these usernames. We often take the fact that we can see the actual human for granted and say things to or about them that we would never do in person. I know that's true of the internet, but I think it's especially relevant to here.

Just stop being judgy. Period. One of my biggest peeves is when someone does not like something, and they take on the mentality that it shouldn't exist. If you don't like something, ignore it. Don't attack it. Don't try and scare other people away from it.

I REALLY liked these.

I've thought about the first a lot through my time in the games. "I have no idea who this person is. They could be male when they say they're female. They could be older than they say they are. They're strangers." So with that I came to the realization that they could be more or less mentally/emotionally stable than me. They could be putting more or less stock into the game's outcome than me. I have no idea who this person is, what kind of life or day they've had, and what their emotional strength is...but I DO KNOW MINE.

In the few cases I've come across where I was in a situation where I questioned the mental/emotional health of a player to the point where I questioned their safety...it made me question how important it was for me to be RIGHT and instead question how necessary some argument or disagreement really was to me. Most of the time, even when I knew I was in the right, I just walked away.

The other players are people too, even if they're just text. Life is better when everyone treats each other like people with feelings.

WHICH LEADS INTO THE OTHER POINT ABOUT NOT BEING TOO JUDGY.

The same concepts apply to being over-judgmental. That could also be very rude or damaging to someone who you don't even know who they are. I've seen players made fun of like they were stupid for having bad spelling when in reality the player was very nice and spoke English as a second language. It's simply not necessary to be over-judgmental.

@Ganymede said in Street Fighter The RPG:

@faraday said in Street Fighter The RPG:

It wouldn't fit within FS3, but you could definitely make a different card-based combat plugin using the streetfighter rules.

I could, I guess. Or someone could do it for me.

Will pay for code.

You know it's not a horrible idea.

Street Fighter setting being a society of fighters traveling the globe, fighting in tournamets, all to see who the best of the best is while thwarting the evils of M. Bison and Shadaloo. If you're able to create a system where players can PVP each other and have a "win/loss" ratio, create stables, where losing a fight doesn't mean your character dies? Might be a great idea for a game.

I mean a lot of players don't like PVP but if the major risk was simply "losing the karate kid tournament and having to train more to be ready for the rematch", players might be more into it.

Deleted comment. Not going to feed it.

I'd prefer people stick on the topic rather than attack people for their responses to this topic, however.

@Solstice said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

@Derp

I can very clearly see why you'd think that, when this schism was largely along the lines of whether you were suitable to hold power.

Now you do so nearly unilaterally, with two admins racing one another to upvote your every take.

Best possible outcome for you. Thus, healthy.

This has nothing to do with the topic.

@Derp Yanno I think there's great wisdom in what you just wrote.

I agree that there was an existing, festering wound in place for a long time, and this place was really a constant state of "fuck you" and "well fuck you, too". In a way it could be said that there are multiple ideologies in play with the people in the hobby themselves, up to and including people who avoided the Hog Pit altogether.

Clearly, it's obvious which camp I'm in, but I think you're right that a schism/donnybrook/fallout to the point where "if you want this then feel free to create your own space" could actually be the best thing that ever happened to the community because it made it clear that it doesn't always have to be the way it's always been. There IS a problem. Recognize it. Decide what you want to do to make it better OR at least recognize the issue enough to no longer enable it.

Anyway, in the least trolly way I agree that the schism needed to happen, some people needed to be told no, and something absolutely needed to be done about behavior guidelines and the Hog Pit.

@Ganymede said in What Would it Take to Repair the Community?:

I don't mean to be flippant or nonchalant, but you are looking for answers which have plagued every community or group since forever.

And that may be the long and short of it, really. It could be as simple as that.