Best posts made by surreality

@Arkandel said in Emotional separation from fictional content:

• Similarly I like to think on my feet. In fact I always felt that was one of my strengths as a ST - I can come up with shit on the fly and it makes sense within the story's narrative. No matter what I'd very much like to retain that freedom; it doesn't mean "throw dead babies at the players for shock value" but it does mean not having to walk on eggshells either. Surely there must be a middle ground where failing to put in that "#animalsacrifice" tag still lets me slay a virtual goat's throat over an altar if the situation calls for it.

And it still boggles my mind that the same people who would never go without providing a spoiler warning about content out of consideration for others would not think it even more important to allow people to avoid viewing content that wouldn't just spoil the mystery of a happy fun story thing, but could do them personal emotional harm.

It isn't as though you can't use a stock 'this scene involves satanic rituals and may involve sacrifices' line.

On a personal level, seeing the 'this is confusing and hard' argument here feels like a desire to avoid labeling on the gut level. The 'the slope is too slippery' is further feeding this interpretation for me. I will actually go so far as to say that this argument, "it's too hard" as a reason to throw in the towel on it and ignore reasonable precautions that will cover 95% of all possible issues because 5% may remain? Is approaching being somewhat offensive in itself, and here's why:

1. Allowing a desire for perfect solution (which does not and will never exist) to discount useful means and tools to prevent the vast majority of incidents and issues is not remotely productive. This is like saying 'why bother with condoms because they're not 100% effective,' and it's just plain silly.

2. Proactive labeling (by players in preferences, by GMs in event descriptions, and staff/games in theme/setting/policy files) actually allows more content that might otherwise be quashed due to general trends against people enjoying it. Given the choice between banning a subject, and allowing a subject with labeling/informed consent for participation, I will go with the latter every time because it is actually a better preservation of creative freedom than disallowing for all based on the feelings of some. At the same time, it recalls Rule #1:

3. The real people behind the characters in a story are ultimately more important than the characters or the story.

The responsibility is, and must be, a shared one.

To allow for maximum options, maximum creativity, maximum chill, maximum fun, and minimal drama, everybody has to do their part. None of these parts are totally easy or foolproof, all of them require thought and a measure of trust, responsibility, and adaptability.

@Ghost More amusingly, a friend of mine from MUing, about... 12 years ago? Got a cruise for two as part of a thank you from the company where she'd done some consulting.

I was the only good friend she knew who would appreciate the relevant culture, had zero set schedule whatsoever, and a complete comprehension of what the sock on the door meant (in a manner of speaking).

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd that's how I actually did get the quadruple luxury venti frappucino suite package for free. We had a personal suite butler, y'all, and they had a veritable fleet of superauto espresso machines in the lobby.

...and yes, I did in fact watch Deep Rising immediately before departing for the airport, on principle. #TeamJoey

@Arkandel said in Emotional separation from fictional content:

So far we've spoken about posting tags as warnings in PrPs. What if we borrow a page from Shang's book (no, not the one with the tentacles) and make into being more than sex?

This is what I have been advocating, working on, and talking about extensively for literally two years now.

http://138.68.45.233/index.php/Resource:Prefs/List

This is the example page for a WoD game for a player-side preference list, with examples.

Seriously. This is universally useful. It gives people a clear indication of what to avoid. It allows people to express these things outside of a moment of conflict or when they feel put on the spot. It gives fellow players an easily referenced guide to both find people into the same things they are and avoid the subjects their normal play partners may wish to avoid when and if at all possible. It also provides an instant resource for STs to see what the current group of players really wants right now and how they do or don't want to see it go down to best choose what kind of plots to run to generate the most interest.

There is almost no downside to this other than the time it takes to write it down, and the possibility that somebody's going to be an asshole and use the information with the explicit purpose of stepping all over somebody and being a dick, in which case you ban the asshole for being an asshole.

Edit: and here's how it would have appeared on the character's page: http://138.68.45.233/index.php/Character:A_Sample_Character#tab=RP

@Quinn You may have already, but have you tried paint pens? I find them to be annoying as fuck-all and it's not always easy to find good colors unless you order them from amazon or something, but they tend to work for me on things that do not want to be written on otherwise. Most are sharpie permanent, opaque, and from my usage I can attest they've held up to some impressive punishment. Downside: hard to find fine points of any kind. Would potentially be worth trying a cheap one from home depot or staples before getting a set.

@kitteh said in Emotional separation from fictional content:

(ie, a clique going around spreading nasty rumors is somewhat obvious, a clique coordinating mass downvotes is not).

This actually happened here, believe it or not. One of the reasons they're gone, I believe.

My body responds better to meat, veggies, fruit, and dairy than it does to anything else. The fresher the better.

I would have no issue giving lab-grown meat a try, with some concern it 'might not work'. A number of 'replacement foods' are so much further divorced from nature than what they're replacing, and somehow, my body seems to recognize the difference and rebel in ways that make me marvel at how many ways your innards can hate the shit out of you (sometimes literally).

I can't do artificial sweeteners, for instance, even naturally derived ones. A few sips of diet soda is a recipe for a vicious headache that will last for several hours. I'd rather go without sugar -- seltzer, black coffee, etc. -- than use a sweetener that isn't sugar. (I don't actually use much sugar, either, and get minimally processed kinds or beverages with cane sugar if I'm going to have them in the house at all.)

Meanwhile, I can eat a pound of bacon a day for a week and I will lose weight, because apparently I am one of those alien experiments that didn't work quite as intended, unless my model of human was bred to make money for Dr. Atkins.

@Ganymede said in Emotional separation from fictional content:

And there's some guy wearing no pants jerking himself off while purring obscenely at a table of ladies. Which problem do you address first?

Apropos of absolutely nothing, yet still on point: once upon a time, I worked at a Mom & Pop video store with my father. M&P video stores are, yes, the ones with the back room.

One day, a dude high as a fucking kite comes in, and bounces his way to the back room, where he begins to jerk off to the DVD covers. My father is watching this on the video security monitor and laughing his ass off.

...until the guy comes swanning back out, arms extended at either side, to smear fluids along every spine of every DVD on the shelves in the main room on his way out.

My answer: You thought it was so fucking funny and wouldn't tell him to leave, Chuckles, YOU clean it up.

And my ass went outside for a smoke break.

This is one of those issues that, I will admit, causes a hint of cringe whenever it comes up. Not because I don't care about where my food comes from, what it does to the environment, or if something lived a horrible life only to have it end on my plate, but because this is such a first world problem sort of conversation, and a number of folks I know (and I've been there myself) are simply not in a financial position to consider anything more than 'how am I going to get food today', with a hope toward it covering their nutritional needs, less worrying about what that food is, and forget about where it came from or its carbon footprint.

While this isn't the thrust of the conversation, it's important to recognize that these choices are frequently a notable privilege. This may be income-based, but also based on location, and that location (not surprisingly) often leaves low-income and/or primarily PoC neighborhoods with precious few options. It's not a joke that bringing fresh produce to neighborhoods that don't have a local grocery that otherwise carries them has had to become a thing (a great thing that people are doing it, but a horrible one that they have to).

We're glad to have a local farmer's market, but it's not year-round, for instance, because we have actual winter here and they source everything not from the immediate area, but from a radius of about 200 miles. (Which counts as 'local' so far as I'm concerned; if we were a larger state this could easily be 'from within the state', but we're a runty state, so it's not.) Make no mistake, though: these are definitely 'splurge' purchases for us, because they're more expensive than the grocery store. The quality is worth it, but the money isn't always there. (There's a reason we have a big happy celebratory day when they open since we can get our fresh breakfast cheese, for instance -- it's a big deal to us, and they're cool enough to let us buy a bulk pack we can nom on through the week, which lets it work out to be a little less ouch.)

We're similarly thrilled to pick up things from the 'right from this very farm'-operated produce stands when we do a daytrip, but again, doing that daytrip is an expense we can't always work into the budget. Again, this is seasonal availability. Those stands are up when they've done their harvest, period, and at no other time.

For people on a very tight budget, Trader Joe's has some decent options. For this area, they're decent on fresh produce, even if the selection is on the small side at our local store (which is tiny, and we just have the one). That selection is somewhat seasonal, too, though.

Anyway... it's important to remember that for some folks, the ability to consider these things at all is a luxury. In a more perfect world, we'd be looking less at fancy meat substitutes that will cost a pile of cash to feel better that a beastie hasn't suffered to get it to the plate, but at safe, healthy, fresh food (of any kind) that is available to all inexpensively, and work from the bottom up, rather than from the top down. If that's a wonder grain, awesome. If it's artificial meat, awesome. If it's a superveggie, awesome. If it's algae, awesome. Don't even care.

There are a lot more people struggling that need a good staple they can rely on than there are people who can fork out (pun not intended) for a $100 burger made from artificial meat.

A generic, anonymous upvote/downvote system is not something I would advocate for a MUX.

A means of people being able to submit 'this made me uneasy' about someone to staff, perhaps with a flag of 'just noting this in case there are other issues' or 'please take action about this' of some kind that does not reveal the complainants identity to the complained-about is not, I think, a bad idea.

Something like, say:

+issue <name>=Person did a thing, and it was a little weird. Didn't make me uncomfortable but could see how it might be an issue if it's something they do all the time, and other people might care more than me. Peace out!

and

+issue/helpme <name>=Person did a thing, and I told them to stop. They didn't. Can you drop a house on them? k thx bai

Ideally, this would allow someone to store both kinds of records about <name>, but would give the complaining player the option of saying whether or not they want someone to actually step in and do something about it or not. The sample command names there are crap, but the idea is a clear enough, I would hope.

In my case, which may not be applicable or useful to others in any way, there will be alt registration/tracking objects of a kind anyway. They have other purposes that have nothing to do with punishment (they're mostly for player XP and how I want to set up XP earning/spending) but this is the best place, IMHO, to store such a thing, since it links the behavior to a player rather than to an individual character object. Linking it to an individual character object may not allow the patterns to become apparent as quickly, if staff don't have some other means of tracking alts/alts are public info on the game (and you'd still have to cross-reference even if so) so I'm not sure if something like this would be as useful to anyone else.

As described here, this is something I'm looking at if I continue with the current project stuff, anyway. (Currently on hold, pending... stuff-whatever-something.) Something to add a note that a player thinks is maybe worth noting in case there are other issues vs. 'plz take action on this NOW!' is a useful sort of switch, I think, and may encourage people who have issues that they consider too borderline for action to be taken to report their concerns (which can be helpful, since it can demonstrate a pattern more readily if one exists) even if they don't necessarily want or feel they need staff to intervene/deal with the situation on their behalf.

One of the most frustrating things for me is getting derailed. More accurately, it's frustrating to not be able to explain this to someone who doesn't experience it themselves.

This is especially problematic in MU, in which there's not always a clear indication[1] that I'm occupied and focused on something.

Over the years, I have often left channels to avoid this. I ask people to page later with a brief explanation why, if it's the first few times it's happening. I'll log out of messengers, go invisible, set do not disturb, etc. I've sometimes set notes about this in RP prefs in +finger, noting that if I'm in a scene, I want to focus on that and am not available for chatter/etc. outside of an emergency.

Interruptions are annoying for anyone[2], but they're pretty awful when you have finally managed to get in the right brain mode to focus and are enjoying yourself, and then... boom, someone's bullshit drama, random ramble, or 'it can wait but I give none fucks about your enjoyment or boundaries even though I know this is an issue for you' question sends the train of thought right off the tracks and into a ditch with no survivors.

Does this also frustrate the shit out of you? (When it's someone you've explained this problem to before, perhaps multiple times?)

How do you handle people who instantly get huffy, no matter how calmly and politely you explain the issue to them?

How do you explain this boundary to someone, and sustain it?

1. And yet, sometimes there is. If I'm in a scene or on grid, especially in a large scene or an event, I feel this is completely fucking obvious. As a simple matter of politeness to anyone, that does not seem like the time to pester someone about random shit.

2. ...and this is entirely aside from the 'nnngh, it's a major peeve when people feel entitled to your time and attention on whatever it is they want simply because they see you are probably not asleep right now'.

(Sorta an example, I guess.)

Issue: unspoken social norms.

Most games have them: the things you just don't do because we all know they're foul play, or generally inappropriate. It's generally because we were told at some point a million years ago, or just never thought to do it in the first place.

TR's old 'barging' rule is a good example of this one to me (though it wasn't unspoken, it was part of game policy). This is something we are all generally familiar with in the category of 'things you shouldn't have to tell people' on many games -- but others have coded locks and heavily coded environments where you can pick locks/etc. via the code and gain access to a space IC.

It becomes a lot muddier at that point: which thing is the 'norm'? Answer: depends on the game, but people coming from either general environment is going to likely be surprised the first time they run into the opposite social norm.

I think we need to be clearer about these things however and whenever possible. (Sometimes, this is going to require an explanation, especially if the understanding of the 'why' behind the norm is not immediately obvious, or if there are different standards in otherwise similar game environments.)

Why it's important: unspoken rules are a pretty big hurdle for newcomers to the hobby, or even folks transitioning to a new game environment. (Look at all the people who are MUX players here who relate to absolutely everything in WoD terms by default for a parallel example of the potential pitfalls to this 'default assumption' thinking when discussing any policy or practice or system for any kind of game.) There are plenty of roleplayers on the internet, but every community of them has their own norms. Making them more readily learned, understood, and accessible is something that, I feel, can help players who are old hats at roleplay but may be new to M* to adapt quickly and avoid potential pitfalls that might cause them to be ostracized otherwise (with the assumption that 'how do you not realize <unspoken thing>!').

@Too-Old-For-This I forget all the things I had seen Peter Dinklage in before this. I recall Nip/Tuck off the top of my head, but there was definitely something else as well. He's been working fairly steadily in television for a while, and it's great to see him getting further still.

@Ghost said in CofD and Professional Training:
You aren't looking at CoD PT, you're looking at nWoD PT, and moreover, you seem to be looking at some of the old HR variants of PT from what I can tell.

nWoD is the one with the discounts. CoD doesn't have that. You get a free skill dot at a certain level, and you get some specs. You do not get a purchase discount and all skill dots are 2xp flat cost without xRating coming into any of it at all.

You also can't buy 5 dots of one type of contact; this is the reason most games make Contacts a 1 dot merit only and allow people to buy multiple instances of it for different types of contacts. It is not like Allies, Status, etc. that allows multiple levels to be purchased in one type of <thing>.

You are railing against something that doesn't exist in the way you describe in CoD at all.

In CoD, you get what @Killer-Klown describes.

@Auspice Yeah, that's... siiiiiiiiiiiigh. I could even make an actual single gradient thing long enough to do a whole blanket. I know how. I can do it. I can. IT IS JUST A NIGHTMARE AND AUGH.

@ThatGuyThere In my dream world -- maybe pipe dream world -- there would be a very very short list of things players would ever even have to ask about. They could just go run most things without even having to check in at all. Clearly defining what kinds of things somebody can do without anything more than finding other players interested enough to RP that thing and have fun with it is necessary, but I'm very firmly behind that being possible, and covering a fairly broad range of subjects with precious few exceptions.

Those exceptions -- though people will define them specifically for any given game based on its themes, obviously -- tend to fall into a fairly predictable pattern: stay in theme/setting (no space monkeys attacking in a universe without space monkey attacks), don't do something that would destroy another player's toys (builds, NPCs) without permission or their presence or participation, don't go for something that involves a massive change to the game's setting (a large scale invasion from an enemy nation, destroying an entire game-run faction thus removing a planned-for niche for players to be able to enjoy, nuking half the grid... ), and don't do stuff to gain improper benefits for yourself/your own PCs (running a plot for yourself to seize power from an NPC where you're also running the NPC... ).

I mean, really, that's about it, and it generally boils down to 'don't cheat, and don't completely break the toys everybody is supposed to be able to enjoy and share'. It's playground rules, in the end.

@Admiral Burden us. We wouldn't be reading the thread if we weren't willing to help shoulder it by, at the very least, reading/listening.

(Whatever it is, I hope it gets better.)

@HelloProject said in Identifying Major Issues:

Writers generally focus on, well, plot and all that, writing stuff. Coders generally focus on efficiency and just making things work, but for a coder, what "works" can be far removed from what non-coders think works. In our hobby, there is very little emphasis on ease of use, the end user experience overall, and there is especially no real emphasis on how presentation and common sense policy can impact that.

This kinda fits in with something I keep trying to find a good way to explain, as it pertains to the various systems in place on any game. There's the RPG system, but there's also the setting (which contains cause and effect chains and systems), there's code, there's staff policy, and there's game policy, and each thing is a system in it's own right. Ideally, they all come together to form one cohesive game, but each of those unique systems needs to support, reinforce, and simplify (rather than contradict or complicate) the others.

Part of that 'let's put on a show' approach results in something of a potluck effect; each group has their thing they're doing and they're doing it in their way. It's possible to get good results with intensive communication and willingness to collaborate•, but more typically you end up with systems that don't all work as seamlessly in combination as they ultimately could.

@tragedyjones is good on the design front, for instance. He doesn't do a lot of the leg work, but he does get a team together and gets them working together, with some clearly defined goals. He's one of the few I've seen really pull this off. I get the impression that the folks running Fallen World and Fate's Harvest are likely in the same boat(ish) though I haven't played there to know directly.

Arx is a good example of 'build from scratch to fit a cohesive idea', though again, I haven't played there to know how well that consistency of purpose works in practice. I get the impression @Ganymede's project is the same way.

Intentional design is something that I do think we need to collectively be paying more attention to.

@Auspice Out of evens to cant with.

BUT IF WE ARE GOING TO GO THERE...

...why not just vanish it as it, uh, accumulates, so you're not dropping a log and poofing your poop. Just... depoop your own personal plumbing, somehow, telepoop to an alternate dimension, or, I dunno, have it all compress infinitely until in old age, you plorp out a diamond or something to pay for your funeral.

Like, as far as solutions go, this is like, 1/10 on creative problem solving.

@HelloProject Honestly, I think a guideline doc like that, while it takes a lot of work to develop, is a huge help later down the line.

I know I wanted to do a lot of 'contribute content' things; each of those would need its own basic design guidelines and a walkthrough to help people see the easiest/best way to make sure it worked, was within reasonable power ranges, etc. etc. depending on what it was, along with any relevant best practices.

The closest we seem to see to something like this as a common thing in terms of most games is the build guidelines, if there are any. I'd say the majority of games have them, at least in my experience. Usually there's a walkthrough, the basic essentials, and a rough style guide.

Just having that sort of resource available for all kinds of content someone could contribute (NPCs, creatures, magic items, new powers, whatever) would go a long way to enabling people to add things to the game that fit in nicely without breaking all the things.

@Auspice That is some gorgeous yarn, too, and yeah, it definitely looks like it's coming along great!