Best posts made by surreality

@Jeshin, something you may want to keep in mind. One of the things that's generally understood around here is that there's not really a 'one true way' approach to things; it's rarely stated outright but the areas of agreement here on 'how things should be' are very, very few.

Usually, once you scratch the surface, everyone has a different idea about how to handle the issue, so the best you're usually going to get is 'people agree <thing> is an issue'.

We will argue that shit like the stakes are life and death with froth and fire now and then, but there's an understanding that things are going to be approached from different angles and bases of experience and that ultimately, no one has it all figured out yet because if they did, whatever the issue is, it would have a stock answer known to work without more complications than it solves.

There's a reason anyone throwing out 'stock answers' is more or less going to get little more than a dubious look, and that, essentially, would be it. You can take it to mean 'we like arguing about it', but that would only be true in a few cases; even if it's taking the form of argument, people around here are generally looking for solutions to shit that addresses their specific areas of concern.

Advice from the high mountain is all well and good, but when it isn't open to discussion -- and frankly, it seems like it's advice dispensed from the high mountain of 'we know better than you even though we don't appear to know shit about this corner of the broader hobby' -- those specific concerns either don't get addressed (bad), or get dismissed (worse, especially with the 'that's because your entire approach is wrong, never mind that your entire approach is what people in this branch of the hobby often specifically enjoy about this branch of the hobby' approach that's been witnessed).

Guess what? That means the advice is not especially useful if someone can't immediately see how it would be applicable. Insisting that it is applicable doesn't resolve this. When people have to stretch their brain to see how what you're discussing even could possibly apply in the first place, you're not off to the best start.

People get 'we don't have a ton of time'. Many around here are in the same boat. Considering how many hats many folks around here wear and how much they do in the hobby alone, many of us are similarly stretched thin. That @Thenomain and @Alzie, etc. have taken time to reply is sorta amazing, considering how much they're actively out there doing, as they're among the real innovators in this neck of the woods and do more than a fair bit to support this neck of the hobby.

@Derp essentially nails it in his description of the ethics article. You're presenting 'solutions' without convincing anyone you necessarily even understand the issues first, and that doesn't appear open to inquiry or discussion. We rip the shit out of people we know have an understanding of what we're collectively talking about with regularity around here on points of disagreement; it's little surprise that when someone comes in with a 'you're all doing it wrong, wait, what are you doing?' attitude, they're going to -- at best -- get ignored. Which seems to be what's happening, for the most part. That the people who are so active in attempts to promote best practices and shared innovations are the ones speaking up should, in fact, speak volumes. These are the people 'walking the walk' around here. Dismissing them? Heh, well...

I want a Don't Panic! room, full of bubble wrap, bean bag chairs, fuzzy throws, abundant kittens, and an endless coffee dispenser. With Netflix.

...it felt appropriate.

@Misadventure --

@Zyrus said in The 100: The Mush:

I do apologize that was what it was taken as, just saying that wasn't my intention.

It's the 'I'm apologizing for someone else making an error' that makes it insincere.

If it was, "I'm sorry I said something that caused discomfort, I did not intend to," it would be different -- but there's a very clear blame-shift in the statement above. That's what's problematic: he's not apologizing for what he did, he's apologizing for someone else interpreting it "wrong". That's where the problem lies.

It's a responsibility dodge, and actually very common amongst folks trying to manipulate the perception of a situation in their favor.

Having given it much thought, I know what my ideal ending would be.

***It will never, ever happen, and yet.***

Most historical periods are going to involve elents of sexism, racism, and/or homophobia.

Including this one, currently, today.

I have to squint a little at the implication that choosing a historical setting — or even a harshly intolerant modern one — means the game creators somehow personally want more sexism, racism, and homophobia as essential elements of their pretendy fun times, or they’d either rewrite history as something it wasn’t, or choose some other era. This implication seems to surface a fair bit and I think it’s really pushing it on the ‘thought crime’ front in a way that’s typically one hell of a stretch.

One of the over-arching themes in Marvel re: mutants has always been ‘fear of the other’ as a proxy for racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, etc. That an era when these subjects were coming strongly to the fore is not at all surprising as a setting choice, even if it’s not an era I’m interested in myself.

@Packrat Between the two of them, none of our laundry is safe!

They're like photonegatives of each other. Too cute!

Since I still can't get a picture of her face for all the headbonks, this is the one from the rescue site we got her from:

...we melted. The wee freckles! I just about died.

I'd put in a search for what amounts to 'floufy girl not-kitten within 50 miles' and when she turned up in an alert, welp. I forwarded that along to my folks and my mother called immediately to yell, "EMAIL THEM RIGHT NOW! RIGHT NOW! SHE IS TOO CUTE! SHE'S PROBABLY GONE ALREADY!" into the phone. (They own the house we live in, so they get a say.)

Maybe the one time in recorded history I listened to my mother without argument.

@thugheaven said in Reasons why you quit a game...:

If you haven’t noticed by now....not really a fan of staffers who complain to players. Especially when I know what they’re saying just...isn’t true and I’m thinking what are they saying about me behind my back?

^ This. It doesn't even matter if it's true. If staff is gossiping about someone else to me, they're violating that person's privacy in a way that person is very likely not remotely cool with, and that throws my ability to trust them out the window. They're probably gossiping about me to someone else, too.

There should, indeed, be a hivemind faction.

...no one should be permitted to join it.

@Livia I was only around on and off as things were kicking off, but there's one thing I noticed that was pretty awesome: a lot of the moving parts fit together well in ways I haven't typically seen elsewhere, and that means that things we'd typically consider to be smaller actions fed the greater whole in cause and effect chains that have been impressive as hell to watch unravel. It also means that none of those actions are unimportant to the story, which makes them not small at all.

Also, people have been trying off the wall, wacky, truly horror movie stuff. There are super-flashlight 'proton packs'! Disco balls as force multipliers! Fort Starbucks. Truly zany things in the vein of "so crazy it just might work". Sometimes it works, sometimes it explodes (literally or figuratively). That has been a lot of fun, and I say this as one of the people who actually exploded.

I had fun exploding, MSB.

I wish I could find a way to make that show up in gigantic letters, I really do.

I was one of the folks who wasn't even awake RL when people exploded, let alone in the scene. I want people to reflect on this for a moment in all seriousness: if this happened on most games, we would be thirty pages into screaming about it by now.

Instead, the people who exploded while offline are cheering and happy and excited about it as players.

Just let that sink in.

Hello, sea change.

Y'all, I have Tyche on block, so I'm not seeing anything he posts. I trust Ark and Gany to handle whatever arises if he is trolling here.

I think it probably goes without saying that if I felt any obligation to apologize to him for anything on these grounds, he wouldn't be still blocked.

(Hey, at least I did something right this thread. )

It would not surprise me to discover a few historically-themed games out there.

I kinda doubt they'll ever be actively advertised here, though, as a very vocal portion of the forum population is extra vocal when it comes to telling folks who want to run a historical game that unless they bring all of the social and cultural issues up to better than the actual modern day standard re: equality, they are only not choosing to do that due to RL sexism, racism, etc. on the creator's part, and the creators clearly just want to call women whores and spit on LGBTQ and PoC.

While this is complete nonsense on its face, this argument has come up often enough and played out the same way every damned time. It's not even a conversation worth having any more on account of this behavior. As a result, I would be sincerely stunned if anyone ever posted an ad for a historical game here. Hell, considering what's ascribed to people who want to create or run one, it's hard to imagine a creator not actively wincing if their game gets brought up on the forum, since they're going to get dragged through the mud on a very personal RL level in a spectacularly ugly way.

@egg It's definitely a lot more tolerant than real history in terms of game play, which is a good thing.

It doesn't attempt to rewrite it, though, or pretend the horrible shit wasn't real, or a fact of life in some respects.

This is because the players are not assholes. It's really that simple.

My PB is Not A White Girl. This has been relevant in some way or another in every story she's been part of -- even the one set in the future.

In the modern day, she was 'the mixed kid'. Not fully fitting in was relevant and formative for the character. Knowing that if the shit hit the fan in various respects, the 'sameness' wasn't going to be as relevant as 'the otherness' was also relevant. The rich white kids were likely to treat her like 'the help' as someone not white (this did not come up IC, but it was relevant to the character), and the native island population wasn't going to see her as an ally against the white invasion as she was part white, so she may as well be all white.

In the future setting, she was a hospitality robot designed specifically to have a mix of various ethnic features in an ambiguous blend to have similarities to as many potential people as possible as a commonality to set them more at ease.

In the old west (1902), she was a hot mess of everything the white population disdained (single woman well past marriageable age still unmarried, mixed race, born out of wedlock, actual witch, possibly a lesbian so far as the town knew) and she was very aware of how precarious her position was. This absolutely did come up IC, and not in a way that involved anyone treating her like garbage. She was addressed by the sheriff at one point, and promptly freaked out before realizing he was asking for her help. She ended up deputized eventually -- but it was never lost on her for a hot second that she would not normally be on the comfortable side of the bars based on the typical prejudices of the era alone.

...and so on.

I wouldn't blame someone for not wanting to be mindful of these things in the course of play, or wanting to play in a space in which they don't matter. I do take issue with the insistence that creating a space in which someone can do this means someone is *ist.

Again, this comes down to a basic reality of the players are not assholes more than anything to do with realism or historical accuracy. There have been a few instances of people going places other players found uncomfortable -- not in terms of 'someone treated my character in a *ist way', but in the 'this portrayal is kinda fucked up' sense some people have described -- but a tap on the shoulder about it seemingly resolved this rapidly, since... yet again, it all comes back to the players aren't assholes. (And that had nothing to do with historical accuracy or the lack thereof.)

@Derp said in Personal Agency for Personal Boundaries:

the form of abuse that we are most concerned about

Here is your issue.

The form of abuse you are most concerned about is not the same as the kind of abuse people in this thread are most concerned about.

There is no happening on a game that is worth traumatizing a real human being, full stop.

No one is demanding that you not remove players from your game that are not a good fit for it, whatever your game may be. No one is demanding you adopt any of these methods.

You are seeing people finally give a shit about the idea that human beings are actually important, which is not something that has been traditionally the case. Only a handful of years ago, when Rex first showed up on Reno and brazenly bragged to a member of staff there (HI!) about how he loved WoD games because they were full of emotionally damaged female PLAYERS that he could OOCly manipulate into doing whatever he wanted, only one member of staff (HI AGAIN!) thought this was something worthy of paying any goddamned attention to or possibly take any action about, even when he started to drive players off of the game through IC and OOC harassment.

This was not forever ago. That isn't ancient history. It is still the norm in many parts of the hobby.

I give a much bigger fuck about that than I do Miss Never Goes to Jail, because one is annoying, and the other is doing real harm to real humans. So, yes, that is my priority, and it sure as shit ain't changing.

Meg: In part, it's the abuse factor, and tracking. If somebody is constantly ducking out of scenes? If various people are constantly ducking out of scenes when they're alone with Bob? This information is pretty useful to staff.

I could also see something like +nope being used in group scenes/plots/etc. If something genuinely triggering to a player pops up on the screen and someone is having a panic attack or flashback? It happens. People may need to check in re: how to proceed, or staff may need to ask the player about how to handle consequence X, inform them of the outcome, etc. if an intermediary is ultimately required. It's like fading one person's presence in a scene with details to be determined after a cooldown period while others carry on as able, vs. everything in the scene fading out or coming to a halt.

@Arkandel said in Model Policies?:

a MU*'s culture is shaped way, way, way more by what is actually practiced rather than what is written down in some help file.

I agree with this, but this is precisely why you have to tell people.

I have said the following what feels like a hundred times by now, but all points remain 100% relevant:

Culture varies from game to game. In an RPI, for example, code will prevent you from entering a room and stealing everything inside if you're not supposed to be able to do that. On a MUSH, this would be considered incredibly bad form despite little or no code preventing it. Similarly, one may join any scene freely in some games, while an invitation is required on others and anything else is considered to be barging.

So, yes, you have to tell people. This is going to require some measure of detail. Part of the reason for that is that a good policy document shouldn't just say 'don't <thing>', it should explain -- or provide a link to an explanation of -- why this matters and how ignoring it negatively impacts the game and others on it. Not having any idea how something could be harmful and thinking something is just silly and arbitrary is one of the most common reasons for policy to be ignored, not 'is just a jerk'.

This shit is not automagically intuitive. People don't psychically download it at the login screen.

Re: the social issues factor, this also varies wildly from place to place. Some are PG-13 or no profanity allowed. Some are a free for all. Some games are run by sexists, racists, and anti-semites; we've seen them advertised here on and off. People coming from those environments may be perfectly decent folk -- hell, they may be leaving because they find that distasteful! -- but on such places, 'the line' is skewed so far in a different direction that the 'normal discourse' there is unacceptable elsewhere.

God help me, I think I'm gonna have to do a tip per post for I am a wordy wench, but here goes #1:

Make it relevant.

Three little words with a ton of meaning, all of them important.

Like @Auspice mentions about 'no, really, it's obvious if you're enjoying the scene in more ways than one and you finish up and get bored'? It tends to be pretty obvious if the only reason you want to interact with someone at all is for TS.[1]

So make it relevant. By that I don't mean 'construct an elaborate ruse to get that character in the sack'. Honestly? Take the 'I just gotta fuck somebody right now' urges to Shang.

That's not a dismissal.

That's not an insult.

That's actually what Shang is for and they will love you for it over there.

Let it happen organically IC. Don't aim for it. If it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen. IC chemistry is real; it's a thing. There are a handful of folks I've played with over the years that I play off of well, and more or less no matter what either of us is playing, that chemistry ends up being there. It may be in the form of unrealized tension (and typically is) but just like 'you know it when you see it' RL, you know it when you see it online between two characters.

Let. It. Happen. Organically.

If it doesn't? Move on. Get over it.

Just like life, if it isn't meant to be, don't try to force it.

That's when things start to get creepy and uncomfortable for someone at warp speed[2], and it's very likely they are not going to want to play with you at all, let alone play body fluids bingo with you.

[1] Some people are totally down with this. If that's the case, all's cool! I ain't judgin'. Have fun with every blessing, you crazy kids -- follow your bliss.

If that isn't the case, it is probably not going to endear you to that person if you approach them about it -- so if you're going to anyway because you don't know what their stance on this is, be polite, friendly, respectful, and clear about your intentions if that's what you're asking for, and be prepared to gracefully accept a no if you get one.

If you actually know they're not into that -- they have a public notice to that end, or they've told you so before -- and you approach them, you pretty much deserve to get the text equivalent of a 'hmmph, you sure are pushy!', but if you absolutely must persist in asking anyway, you should still be asking politely, respectfully, and clearly. You really shouldn't be pushing it in the first place, but if you absolutely cannot control your urge to bang someone with that PB and just gotta aim for the dream, well... don't be any more of a jackass about it than absolutely necessary. (Note: It is never necessary to be a jackass. Funny how that works, ain't it?)

[2] ...and then nobody's happy, there's a thread in The Hog Pit, people start making new policies, staff gets headaches, dogs and cats living together, it's mass hysteria.

@warma-sheen The issue in this case actually had nothing whatsoever to do with her game or how she's behaved on it. It was purely forum behavior; primarily this involved having boards taken down at various hosts when one of her descriptions was posted on the 'bad descriptions' forum (first round), section on WORA (second round), and so on based on copyright infringement until WORA was eventually hosted somewhere in the land of None Fucks Given for a space of years.

Really, it has absolutely nothing to do with what she has or hasn't done on her game. The game sounds interesting from what I've heard of it, and Nymeria and Balerion are probably the most well-informed people out there, period, in regard to the world itself. Some people probably do want 'this is just a chance to immerse myself in that world to experience it'; that's not the issue at all.

It's just that a whole lot of people from the WORA days that remember her forum antics are still here want nothing to do with it, good or bad. To put it simply, those of us who recall seeing her go into Elsa-grade frothing rants all over the forums, claiming we were all illiterate because we're American, etc. wouldn't be interested if they were handing out winning lottery tickets in chargen because we'd rather not run the risk of encountering similar behavior in pretendy fun time spaces.

@Nymeria In all seriousness, and I say this without snark, if people don't like the choices you made for your game, they can get the hell over it and play somewhere else. (They will still gripe about it in most cases, but that does happen to everyone. It isn't just you.) Really and truly.

People here will complain about anything and everything if it's not how they personally wish it was, and take it to some galling extremes when they do it. In some spaces, that's kosher -- if stupid -- and in others, not so much. Either way, people 'wishlisting' or 'doomsaying' things gets out of hand around here a lot, so try to not take that to heart. Put it this way: if you had made the opposite choices, other people would be complaining about that, too. It's ridiculous, but... <shrug> it's just how things are at this point. You're (hopefully) enjoying the game, and the people staying on the game are (hopefully) enjoying the game, so don't stress it too much.

My hair is now more or less iridescent teal.

May not be what we planned, but hot damn if I will complain.

All I'm going to say here is that obvious surreality alt is obvious without me having to name her to the folks (all two of you!) who love me, and doubtless doubly so to those who hate me.

This game got me off my ass, out of my rut, active somewhere again, and looking forward to seeing what happens with genuine optimism.

That is not something I thought I would actually be able to say, ever. I would gush at length, but in all sincerity, that sums it up. I don't have higher praise for anything than that.

While this place specifically excludes the kind of thing I play (I only play female characters), I appreciate that they say they don't want female PCs right on the tin. It saves me and them both time, grief, and potential arguments or confusion, and bluntly, I appreciate that.

It's not the game for me, though I don't get the impression I would be unwelcome as a player (female, bi) if I wanted to play a male character that's gay, bi, queer, or open-minded straight.

I just don't play male characters. (I'm hilariously bad at it, so I refrain from inflicting that on anyone, anywhere.)

I am all for folks building themselves a game for a specific group or interest. That may mean I'm excluded, but in this case, I don't get the impression it's because I have a vag RL -- @ixokai, I get what you're saying, though, that that's not necessarily a good thing (that's a whole other layer of discussion really) -- but because I prefer to play things that have them, too, so this is a case of their choices and my choices not jiving. Which is OK.

I'm OK with having cooties, I guess. I'd rather know up front, and they say as much, so I can't really get riled. I'm not entitled to play everywhere and anywhere, and I'm cool with that.