Posts made by Tat

@ganymede said in Mass Effect MU*?:

Not sure what I'd do about tech powers, which always seem to be the red-headed step-children in ME. In my custom system, I boiled those powers down to hacking abilities via an Omni-tool; Incinerate became Overheat, for example. So, I can also see a sort of "hacking" attack that could shock/damage a target or cause them to lose a turn (from getting stunned or fried from an electric jolt through their shielding system).

Double post, sorry not sorry.

I think that you're getting here at one of the really fundamental questions to ask yourself in terms of what you want to run and what people want to play, which is, 'what powers are you using?'

On A&O, we used the ME3 multiplayer skill list because it was varied, but also small enough to wrap our head around, and we didn't have a combat system so it didn't matter whether things worked there or not. We saw a really varied display of types of players. Everyone got three powers, like in MP, and no two characters were the same. It was actually super interesting watching people play with their strengths and learn how to build via teamwork.

If you limit that list down, you'll have a different result. Maybe not a bad one, but definitely a different one.

Did not having a system work well for us? Sometimes. Sometimes not. It worked better for biotics and engineers than it did for truly combat-oriented characters.

You COULD possibly choose to only have straight up shooting and combat skills present in FS3 and do everything else as a background skill (this is how we did most mutation on X-Factor), and manually adjust things like, say, penetration if someone takes down a (strictly RPed) shield in the previous turn, but it starts to get clunky and weird and non-intuitive.

Anyway, I have lots of Thoughts about ME in FS3 and if you ever want to bounce things around, feel free to ping me.

@ganymede said in Mass Effect MU*?:

The tipping point for me is FS3's combat engine. It is damn-near-perfect for a Mass Effect game: it can handle multiple enemies and PCs and grind out a 20-round combat in a couple of hours (if people are posing quickly and paying attention). I think that, with some tweaks, aspects like treating wounds, healing, penetration values, and so on can be modified to represent the ME world's tech-set.

At least, that's my hope.

It's funny you say this, because I have a smallish ME game set in London during the Reaper War that I would freaking LOVE to run, but probably won't build any time soon because I don't think FS3 can handle it (without a lot of tweaking).

It does fine with straight up gun and armor combat. Biotic COMBAT you can make work well enough - fudging weapons for certain areas of space magic and straight RP for other areas.

But then you get into the idea of shields and barriers, and the fact that some characters and skills are largely built around dealing with these. FS3 has no way to deal with shields and barriers, and you'd probably have to cut those abilities from your canon if you want to use it.

There's also the question of whether you allow combos - biotic explosions, for example - which are REALLY fun to play with. You could probably do that with FS3 and mods, as long as the GM was paying a lot of attention.

As for custom Ares stuff, it would be mildly relevant to separating biotic skills out from, say, shooty skills, but I don't think you really need that in Mass Effect. It won't, unfortunately, solve the shield/barrier problem.

Like @Three-Eyed-Crow mentioned, we did a lot of crazy weapon stuff for 'magic' mutant powers in FS3 on X-Factor and I'm totally happy to talk at extreme length about how we did it and what we did if you end up trying that for biotics or weird engineering stuff. I did a whole heck of a lot of digging into the innards of the math to try to balance things like adamantium claws with indestructible skin (with varying results).

I've also spent a lot of time thinking about how the new FS3 works with things it's totally not intended to (Faraday will probably have a heart attack, sorry!), in terms of AoE attacks, healing, etc.

Anyway this got kind of rambly but I am 1000% there for a new ME game, and can't wait to see where it goes.

@glitch I had dice roller in my list of possibilities!

I agree that full-fledged combat is not necessary, but I think a lot of people rely on basic conflict resolution. Even on games I've played without sheets and lots of consent, we'd sometimes flip coins.

@ganymede said in Alternative Formats to MU:

I think this is system-sensitive. Lots of games employ consent or description-based stats, so I didn't think these were "core" functions.

You're right, but if we're honestly talking about something to replace telnet, I think that our 'core' needs to be broader than 'every game uses this'. It needs to have a full enough list of features that people go 'that looks better', and that's going to include, IMO, logging and conflict resolution.

Otherwise I might as well just crank up a wiki and a slack or discord server.

@rook

I would venture to correct your statement to 'context-switching can be deadly in MUSHing'.

I make this case because I have RPed with lots of people who context-switch a lot and do just fine. It's very common for me to RP with a wiki window open to reference help files, especially if I'm GMing. I am /already/ doing this context-switching. I'm already reminding myself of something that happened in a past scene by pulling up the log, or checking out that character's phobias on their wiki page so I can be evil to them in a scene.

Adding tabs is not the context switching that causes me problems. That happens when I'm also watching a movie, or reading a book, or wrestling with work. The 'context' for me is 'I'm RPing', not the tools I'm using.

@rook said in Alternative Formats to MU:

Context-switching is already deadly in MUSHing. We all know that.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by that? Are you talking about leaving your client window to open a browser window?

@ganymede

I would add to your list:

1. Private real-time communication between players

Really, there is no reason that mail and page can't be joined together. If you have persistent chat like in slack or google chat or facebook messenger, the difference becomes negligible. But I do think it's worth having the 'real time' addition.

2. Conflict resolution

Not every game uses this, but combat code or dice code built in is one of the reasons that just throwing together a wiki and a chat client is not awesome.

3. The ability to improve/grow/adjust your sheet

This would include earning XP, spending XP.

3. Logging/sharing scenes

Again, I know not every game does this, but a lot do these days. I really like the core of Faraday's thinking re: scenes for this, in terms of capturing just the RP bits and putting it somewhere, and then feeding it out in a list that could, in theory, be manipulated by different things. For example, sorted by date, or title, or character name. Searchable by the same. Etc.

@ganymede

I think one thing that is core to M*ing and the reason we're having this conversation rather than cobbling a game together out of a wiki, Gmail, and a chat client is that everything is COHESIVE.

I don't have to add a google account, I don't have to change what I'm logged into, I don't have to have separate log-ins for different things (mostly).

So when thinking about web-based alternatives, I think it's useful to think 'this could work like Gmail' or 'this would be great like google docs', but less useful to say 'just use google'.

@rook If you want to see how it's working with telnet based games, take a look at BSU's web CG (http://bsgu.aresmush.com/chargen).

You'll have to register to peek, but it's pretty cool and a very solid beginning to something. I suspect even a non-telnet version would look something like this.

@auspice

For the record, I did not take 'people aren't writing' and 'they don't exist' literally.

I did take them to mean that you think there are not ENOUGH people writing and interested in RP to be bothered with. If that's not what you meant, I apologize for misunderstanding.

And it changes nothing about my reply. There are forum games out there with far more complicate CG processes than many M*s. Journal games, too.

So perhaps we have a disagreement here. You don't think there are enough to make an effort to bring into the fold. I do. I've had a couple on a game I run, and I enjoyed them, and I felt continually bad about how hard it was to learn things I've taken for granted for decades.

But again, let me reiterate: I want these fun toys mostly so I can use them myself.

@auspice said in Alternative Formats to MU:

You are trying to bring people that do not exist into a hobby by alienating the people that do.

You want to add ultimately pointless bells and whistles to things that will eliminate the people that phone MU.
You want to cut out the people that prefer (or can't for health reasons) not to use a mouse just to RP.

All to gain the one or two college kids that actually do enjoy reading and writing?

Wow. I mean. I just--

We know there are good RPers out there. It's a fact. I can link you to games full of people writing stories.

Speaking of stories people apparently aren't writing... Have you seen archiveofourown.org? Have you seen the drabbles on tumblr? The Secret Santa challenges with dozens, sometimes hundreds, of participants? Have you heard of Nanowrimo? People aren't /writing/? The internet is FULL of people writing! It is FULL of people living and breathing in franchises they love. They are so eager for this experience that they /RP on Tumblr/ where it is /horrible/. Imagine what they can and will do when they are given the tools we take for granted.

But beyond that, look. I'm pumped about the idea of new blood. But these bells and whistles? I want them for myself.

I want to be able to read bbs without cluttering my backscroll, I want to be able to arrange combat via dropdown menus instead of remembering commands, I want to look at a HUD without adding a second character to combat while I'm GMing just so I can keep track of the flow of the scene AND who's injured.

I want a web-based game for purely selfish reasons. Because after 20 years of M*ing, I'm fucking tired of things being harder than they have to be.

Difficult CGs (a web form only gives this a new interface; it doesn't make the core of CG easier)

No. Sorry. Totally not true.

I've run the same CG on Ares via telnet and via the web. I can tell you which one is a BILLION times easier. It's not the telnet.

And that's a pretty simple system. The numbers aren't complicated, there's not a lot of math to be done. But the UI makes it SO MUCH EASIER to track where I am, what I have left to spend, what things are at the right levels, etc. And I'm pretty sure that there's lots of room for improvement on what Ares has so far, even. Helpful error messages, tips and hints, auto-calculators, ALL KINDS OF THINGS.

I for one am PUMPED to welcome new players into this hobby, and I'm PUMPED to get to use these bells and whistles for myself.

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

The issue of people not wanting to type complicated commands, well that's a little different, but I look at it like this. You're communicating with others in a text-only medium. You're using words to convey visual information, emotion, sounds, moods. If you can handle all that, but are stymied by the syntax for the command to make a bbpost, then you're probably in the wrong hobby.

I've been M*ing for 19 years now and I am regularly stymied by the syntax for the command to bbpost. I have to look it up every damn time.

If that's not a sign that the tools are bad, I don't know what is.

I'd give a lot to be able to just post on a webpage, using clicky buttons. The ability to reply to posts on the web portal on Ares is one of the BEST BEST things.

Also? It's hilarious to me that we're talking about people not being bothered to learn the commands, when for YEARS I listened to MUSH players complain endlessly about MOO's mail system being different. We're like the most set-in-our-ways community and we're bitching about people who don't want to adapt to /us/?

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

@sunny said in Alternative Formats to MU:

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

I honestly do not think that simply moving from MUSHcode to Python (or Ruby) will make it 'orders of magnitude' easier.

https://codecombat.com

This exists for learning Python. I have used it to teach teenagers, and I do not code. This truly is orders of magnitude easier than how we had to learn to use mushcode. This isn't even considering the fact that I can literally go take a class from a professional instructor, do a coding boot camp, buy any number of hundreds of books, watch instruction videos on youtube...and I could continue going on listing ways to learn, NONE of which exist for mushcode.

Motivated learner, apparently with the aptitude for programming and with access to quality instruction tools. Results not typical

Results way better than motivated learner with access to 'where the hell is the 'Lost Library of MOO' these days anyway?'

I mean, yes, you have to be motivated and have some aptitude to code. But coding in most M* languages requires MORE motivation and MORE aptitude, along with an insane level of tenacity just to find resources.

Plus, something we haven't mentioned yet: coding in languages that other people know opens up the possibility of outsourcing your game building. In these days when some of us finally have more money than free time, one could /hire/ someone to code a system.

@ganymede said in Alternative Formats to MU:

All of this may be true, but good games differ from one another. Your package may have all of the great features we've come to know and love, but I don't think, for example, that the developers are interested in coding up special, unique features for each game.

I could be wrong, mind.

I can think of half a dozen different games I could run on an Ares FS3 install without changing a lick of code beyond the configuration settings (types of weapons, factions, ranks, etc). AT LEAST.

I'm also working on a game that's involving a lot of actual code changing. There's no reason it can't be done in Ares (or Evennia) if one wants to, the same way it can be in MUSH.

But there is a LOT of room for creativity within the basic framework, even without different stuff. That opens doors for a lot of people who'd otherwise have them shut because lack of coder.

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

I think it's important to keep in mind that neither Ares nor Evennia are bringing anything to the table that we haven't had for the past 25 years (except for the ability to code MU*s in Python and Ruby). Servers such as MOO, ColdMUD, DGD, and MUCK are every bit as capable (and are even superior in many respects) as their more modern counterparts but have largely been ignored because MUSH was easier and 'good enough'. Evennia and Ares are not going to reverse that trend, any more than ColdMUD and MUCK did.

This is coming from someone who has spent the last four months working on an Evennia based project

Besides the built-in web-integration (possible in other servers, but only if you know how to code it yourself), the big, giant, enormous benefit of Evennia and Ares is that they are written in languages for which many, many tutorials, help communities, and books exist.

I taught myself MOO code maybe a decade ago. The documentation is atrocious and it's hard to learn without a mentor. It's also hard to find mentors.

I prefer it to coding in MUSH for many, many reasons, but I'm still super enthused about seeing MU games moving to code platforms that I can learn without having to cross my fingers and archive.org decades-old help pages.

@faraday said in Alternative Formats to MU:

I don't think that the presence or absence of softcode is the defining quality of what makes a MU. More than a few folks have logged onto BSGU - particularly before the web portal took off - and didn't even realize it was a brand-new server and not PennMUSH.

Totally agree. I started on MOO, where there's no such thing as hard and soft code in the same way there is on MUSH. You could get coding permissions - in the same way someone could branch Ares and code a plug-in and then it could be folded into the main game.

I mean, part of me likes letting players code, because fiddling with toys is how you get new coders, but it's not at all necessary to be a MU.

@faraday said in Alternative Formats to MU:

So if you do scene/start Mess Hall=public then it starts up a scene using the Mess Hall desc.

Whoa. I totally didn't realize it did this.

BRB, rethinking grid options now.

@arkandel said in Alternative Formats to MU:

For example what I had in mind for a GM was to let them create a 'room' in advance or even on the fly; give them different terrain icons they can interject into grid squares, allowing for the visuals of combat to be complete clear to the players, and for ranged powers (including hitting people under cover) and movement rates to be handled automatically. Just point and click, zero need for memorization.

This is a SUPER interesting idea! We're been using Google Draw for years to have interactive maps during messy combat scenes so people can reflect where they are and see where enemies are. Imagine having that integrated into the ACTUAL game.

@faraday said in Alternative Formats to MU:

I have no philosophical objection to breaking out chat and RP into a separate stand-alone client, though there's a ton of work involved there when you account for all the different platforms. What I object to is expecting people to learn all these game-specific +-commands with crazy syntaxes.

Yeah, this is basically what I want to see, and where I think the barrier to entry is for people. Hell, I've been MU*ing for nearly twenty years (dear lord), and I STILL look up the syntax for how to reply to a bb or add a job to a certain category. And I HATE doing it every single time.

Give me GUI. Give me dropdown menus and submit buttons and edit buttons and reply buttons.

Re: grids, I think there's an interesting question to be asked about what counts as a 'grid' on a non-telnet game. I've actually had this conversation a lot with people. What are the key components? Is it being able to 'walk' from room to room? Is it being able to look from one room to another? Is it a sense of where things are located? Is it the descs?

I'd be happy with a clickable map with descriptions and have no need for 'walking'. But I also feel super strongly that I need both location orientation and descs. Some people have different requirements. But this is a great example of the sort of discussion needed if we really want web-based play, where there are so many possibilities telnet doesn't have.

What I desperately want is something that combines a web portal like what Ares is becoming, but on steroids, with the option of a separate client that's focused on the real-time aspects of the game.

For those who haven't explored much on Ares' web portal yet, it's freaking amazing. Here is a list of things I can do easily through the web interface that I have traditionally HATED having to do on telnet:

• see system information such as weapon and armor stats
• see combat HUDs
• make changes in combat, such as adding NPCs, changing their status, adjusting weapons and armor, etc etc etc.
• reply to bb posts
• read and reply to jobs
• go through cgen
• explore the grid
• read helpfiles
• see upcoming events on a calendar (that I can sync with my own calendar)
• see who's online
• see the roster
• see the list of taken PBs
• see the census (with whatever info the game admin had decided to include)
• see a list of players
• see a list of characters

It's freaking incredible. I'm in the super early stages of playing with a set-up for a game, and I pretty much default to the web portal whenever I can. This list just covers the user side, not the admin side, where I can ALSO do things like configure the settings for basically everything.

The trend here is pretty clear to me - all the OOC things that clutter up your screen, and ESPECIALLY the ones that require remembering a lot typed commands, are moving to web. And I love it. I will probably never go back if I can help it, I love it that much.

And yet, despite the really nice web client also available there, I will almost certainly be using a separate client for the RP aspect. That's because I want my real-time stuff to be broken out into it's own 'space', because it works better for my head and my attention that way. It's the same reason I use the slack PC client instead of its browser-based one, why I use an email client instead of webmail, and why I freaking hate facebook messenger. I want that stuff in its own box.

To me, the ideal is a client that interfaces with the web capabilities, with the OOC minutia living on the web where the interface is so, so, so much easier. I look forward to the day that I don't ever have to type +jobs in a client, but can do it ALL online. Where players can submit requests in a little box and choose the category from a dropdown menu and click 'submit' instead of remembering a long command. Where game mail is basically email, and pages are PMs.

It's gonna be AWESOME.