GMs and Players
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@pyrephox said in GMs and Players:
Like it or not, there's a power differential there within the context of the setting, and I think it needs to be kept in mind. With NPCs, really just...fade to black would be my preference. Do what you want on your PCs, although be aware that if people know you're staff, some of them will try to get into your pants for the perceived extra bennies of being involved with you, and other players may end up feeling that they can't be honest about their desire (or not) to engage in a romantic relationship IC because they're worried about retaliation, whether that is warranted by your behavior or not.
This is my feeling and my general preference, though I tend to think if it's causing problems it's a symptom of a larger one rather than the problem in and of itself.
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@kanye-qwest said in GMs and Players:
No one in the world has ever done anything without bias.
Thank you, Polonius, but I did not say otherwise. I said:
- If you want to play, then play;
- If you want to staff, then staff;
- But if you staff, people are going to expect you to play without bias; and
- If you are perceived as having bias then you should no longer staff.
Sure, bias is inescapable; however, we can expect others to play without it and to accuse us of having it if we make a poor choice.
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@ganymede said in GMs and Players:
If you are perceived as having bias then you should no longer staff.
So I'm going to disagree with that point, because I'm 110% positive that every staff on every game is at some point perceived as having a bias. Whether or not that perception is reality is one thing, but if staff should step down every time they are "perceived" as having bias? We wouldn't have anyone staffing.
As far as the queston that was asked by @icanbeyourmuse, I don't think staff should be TSing on NPCs. If you want to TS people, use a PC. NPCs are there to move plot along, if that plot somehow involves a PC trying to bone the NPC, then FTB. If your plot involves the NPC boning a PC, uh.. please rethink that plot, I guess, cuz that seems super predatory and uncomfortable for everyone.
I have seen it become a problem with staff using their PC to bone people, but it was because the only way you could get plot was by being romantically/sexually involved with the staff person's PC. I voted with my feet and stopped playing that game.
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@bear_necessities said in GMs and Players:
So I'm going to disagree with that point, because I'm 110% positive that every staff on every game is at some point perceived as having a bias. Whether or not that perception is reality is one thing, but if staff should step down every time they are "perceived" as having bias? We wouldn't have anyone staffing.
This is fair. I'll amend.
- If third-parties reasonably perceive you as having bias, then you should no longer staff.
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@ganymede But what is a reasonable perception? I mean, I am pretty sure anyone here could come up with reasons why any staff on any game is biased. That doesn't mean it's true.
I will say that I regularly think of optics and how that can be perceived. If I feel like the optics are bad, I change my approach to certain things. But just because bias can be perceived does not mean it's actually happening.
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@bear_necessities said in GMs and Players:
If I feel like the optics are bad, I change my approach to certain things.
If the optics are so poor that a disinterested third party thinks I've acted with bias, then I would seriously question the decision I made.
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@ganymede said in GMs and Players:
@bear_necessities said in GMs and Players:
If I feel like the optics are bad, I change my approach to certain things.
If the optics are so poor that a disinterested third party thinks I've acted with bias, then I would seriously question the decision I made.
I don't think we're in disagreement here at all. I just don't think that staff should pack up and go because someone perceives them as having bias. We all have bias, people are gonna people and perceive biases even when it doesn't exist. And really what matters, I think, is what you said - if you are doing something that looks bad, either change course or expect people to walk away from your game.
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I think Staffers need to play without bias, but people need to play WITH Staff without bias, as well.
I think a lot of players need to remember Staffers are people with jobs, and other things that happen.
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I had typed out something about this yesterday but it got et.
I have thought about why I was super uncomfortable with NPC sexual/romantic play with PCs in my earlier-to-mid MUSHing years but it really doesn't bother me at all now.
I think it is because back in my "growing up" years on games, because sexual RP was so (prevelent but) looked down upon and shamed, and because at least on my formative games at that time (oWoD and Shadowrun) you really didn't have people who weren't staff running plot or scenes, it was extremely hard for people to say no safely to staff. And especially once the risky play of sexual themes entered it was even harder to say no/let's do something else or do anything that would lead to exposure for engaging in that play. Particularly if you were female.
It took me many years even after I started playing on games where sexual RP was /not/ particularly shamed to not have that discomfort. Possibly because even today in the community, you do have the slut-shaming/OMG this worthless person who only TSes, ect stuff that goes on, though fortunately not to the same extent.
But now I simply don't play on games if I don't feel the staff is safe. This is a relatively new development in my MUSHing life. While by no means have I agreed with every staff decision on the main game I play on, and yes I have not infrequently been annoyed at times with the time/energy lavished on people who just seem to return that with rudeness and entitlement and just...obnoxiousness--the truth is that I feel very safe on that game from a The Staff I Interact With Have a Strong Baseline of Trust I'm Willing to Give Them standpoint. While having any NPC played more like a PC is not a decision I personally would have made, it doesn't bother me because of my high degree of trust. It is probable on another game it would, though I am not sure it would mean I'd walk out.
So I don't really care if they're having orgies with other people, because I see sexual and/or romantic RP as legitimate stories. To be honest, I would have more fun engaging in horribad unintentionally hilarious TS than I do in many meeting/large social scenes. Pillow talk is just as likely a funnel for gossip as is blabbing about stuff at a cafe or in sparring banter. There's room for all of it, IMO.
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@mietze The ICK factor for me is... NPCs are different than PCs. Usually that means they have some plot-purpose for the wider game or they may have different stats or something.
If a staff-player wants to get some TS on with their perfectly normal PC alt (or just have some light chit chat over coffee or whatever else to get a break), that's a-ok. Not everybody can run big meaty plot scenes with all their time and needing to indulge their own personal interests is normal, should be no shame in that.
But staff breaking out the Vampire Prince to go have sexy times with a specific player or whatever else... that's gonna make a lot of people uncomfortable and best just avoided. If it does become crucial to seduce a powerful NPC, just FTB and move on.
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@gremlinsarevil said in GMs and Players:
But staff breaking out the Vampire Prince to go have sexy times with a specific player or whatever else... that's gonna make a lot of people uncomfortable and best just avoided.
Especially if/when other staff use that same NPC.
Your PC is yours. Do whatever you want with it. NPCs are the game's, not yours.
He/Him
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@gremlinsarevil i can understand that point of view. I just won't play on a game where I feel like there might either be pressure to TS wielded by staff, or that my only real or best avenue to plot involvement would be through sexual play.
That can and does happen on games, I've definitely experienced that pressure and seen times where there was very little open ways to get involved other than that. At the time I tolerated that because it was just kind of a thing and you weren't allowed to say anything about it because you would have been branded a TS whore for even being in a position where someone might feel they could proposition you in the first place.
So I understand and honor that it may be a walkable thing for many people. Just for me personally I am somewhat surprised to find that it really doesn't bother me on either place ive played recently.
Though for the record, the last time an NPC made any sort of sexual advance towards any of my pcs was like 10+ years ago. So I suppose it's easy for me to say these things bc I'm not being offered only that avenue for involvement. And most places I've played in the last handful of years are very strict about sexual themes being introduced into stprylines regardless of whether its a staff ST or a player one without some kind of documented consent. I understand and support those policies but don't love the shaming that can happen towards people who do feel comfortable and enjoy those elements.
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There's a difference, to my mind, between TS and an IC sexual/romantic relationship.
An NPC can absolutely have an intimate relationship with a PC. They don't need to spend hours typefucking each other for that to be true, and to have an impact on the story.
He/Him
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@tinuviel said in GMs and Players:
Your PC is yours. Do whatever you want with it. NPCs are the game's, not yours.
If I spend hours and hours writing an NPC and using it in stories that I GM for a game? That NPC is not the game's. It's mine. It's my NPC, it's my tool to use to push story.
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@thesuntsar said in GMs and Players:
@tinuviel said in GMs and Players:
Your PC is yours. Do whatever you want with it. NPCs are the game's, not yours.
If I spend hours and hours writing an NPC and using it in stories that I GM for a game? That NPC is not the game's. It's mine. It's my NPC, it's my tool to use to push story.
YUP
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Given that I'm the only one who plays my NPCs, it's hard to call them "the game's". The distinction is, GMs don't write stories for them and I keep myself in a support role.
If I were to retire, chances are, the NPCs (those not referenced in clues etc) will just be retired. And some other staffer would just make another NPC to fill any story voids.
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@tinuviel i look at TS typing in the same vein as meeting RP. If you are going to set up a romantic and sexual relationship for Reasons, if the parties want to scene that i do not see why they shouldn't.
Why should a staff member meet and RP with pcs about things they could just send in a bullet point mail and ftb rather than info dump in a scene (when honestly half the time people don't really react and they don't care about the other PC's reactions either so they aren't really cross-RPing). Some players might prefer it. Others like scenes like that.
I dont think most people who engage is sexual or romantic partner RP always type it out. I doubt that happens with npcs/staff pcs either.
I just don't see writing a TS scene to be any more of a waste of time than the vast majority of court scenes I've gone to on any game. Except for you don't hear quite as much people whining about how useless and boring he scene they are willingly parking their ass in is while its going on, when its TS rather than a court.
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@mietze said in GMs and Players:
I just don't see writing a TS scene to be any more of a waste of time than the vast majority of court scenes I've gone to on any game.
I do. I find TS tedious. Like, I'd rather :takes a sip of klah than :takes off her top.
If I join a L&L game, I am probably there for court scenes. Not TS. I want my game to do what it says on the tin.
YMMV.
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@krmbm said in GMs and Players:
YMMV.
This is basically the only answer to... anything brought up in this thread. There are apparently dozens of ways to interpret exactly what an NPC is, what TS is, what a story is, what the point is... And anyone that doesn't do things the way you do is wrong, etc, etc.
He/Him
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@tinuviel said in GMs and Players:
@krmbm said in GMs and Players:
YMMV.
This is basically the only answer to... anything brought up in this thread. There are apparently dozens of ways to interpret exactly what an NPC is, what TS is, what a story is, what the point is... And anyone that doesn't do things the way you do is wrong, etc, etc.
We are all valid.
