Good writin'.

Rook

@Arkandel
I dunno, Ark. I could really go with that, since it was entirely IC, and the mob was right outside. That implies, to me, that it is a currently-running, happening-right-now plot, and it is entirely plausible that someone would burst into a room all bloody and needing help.

If it had happened a day or two ago, yeahno. But RIGHT NOW? Yeah, that should interrupt what is happening in the next room, as 1) they should have ICly heard the mob's shouts and screams outside, 2) might've noticed the torches from the windows.

Sorry to nitpick your example.

Coin

@Rook said in Good writin'.:

@Arkandel
I dunno, Ark. I could really go with that, since it was entirely IC, and the mob was right outside. That implies, to me, that it is a currently-running, happening-right-now plot, and it is entirely plausible that someone would burst into a room all bloody and needing help.

If it had happened a day or two ago, yeahno. But RIGHT NOW? Yeah, that should interrupt what is happening in the next room, as 1) they should have ICly heard the mob's shouts and screams outside, 2) might've noticed the torches from the windows.

Sorry to nitpick your example.

Were you there? Because the way @Arkandel tells it, it was just a random made-up mob that the player created so he could come in bloodied.

Arkandel

Sometimes you also should consider the OOC circumstances. For example I consider it at least a matter of proper MU* etiquette to ask in a page before I actually join a scene unless it's in a really public place; that is, I won't really check first to go to Elysium but if it's something happening at bar #5 on the grid and it's just two people then I will. People might not want others there which is fine with me; if they're RPing a quiet dinner date then anything I do to engage them would be disruptive unless that's what they're looking for.

Then again it's been known to happen that you'll ask if you can join something already going, get there, and figure out there just isn't anything for you to do. Maybe those involved say they are (or actually are) OOC okay with others coming in but they are RPing having dinner and any attempts to hook yourself in that or to engage them go unanswered. That's a bit more awkward since you now have to consider a reason to extract yourself from that situation unless you know them well enough to be sure actually pushing the matter IC won't annoying anyone present.

Frankly I'd much rather be told ('just so you know, it's probably going to be boring for you if you come') than spend half an hour finding this isn't the scene I was looking for.

Edit:

@Rook said in Good writin'.:

@Arkandel
I dunno, Ark. I could really go with that, since it was entirely IC, and the mob was right outside. That implies, to me, that it is a currently-running, happening-right-now plot, and it is entirely plausible that someone would burst into a room all bloody and needing help.

There was no mob outside before we got there, and (as I remember the circumstances at least, this was a while ago) no metaplot about that sort of thing happening in general.

But basically the "I walk into the room bloody, bruised and half dead, someone save me!" has been an attention-seeking trope for a long time.

Sorry to nitpick your example.

Sokay!

Rook

@Coin No, I was not.

So that brings a question to mind that I'll pose:
We have been discussing PRPs in other threads, encouraging players to start things up. What if this was the beginning of a light PRP? Or a heavy, far-reaching PRP? (@Arkandel made clarifications that this was not the case, so I'm on board!)

I reread what Ark said, from a different viewpoint, since Coin made me realize that I might have misunderstood, and yes, I agree with his points. Player totally steamrolled. Sorry, totally answered that from an IC perspective, momentarily forgetting the OOC thing. Duh.

Paris

@A.-Meowley said in Good writin'.:

So my question is: what tips are there for Players who want to make sure their style is meshing well & inclusive of those gathered?

Offer hooks. Reply to questions if you can, or give an inquiring look or an encouraging question if you can't. Reply to what is said. Ask questions of your own. Include folks if you notice no one is picking up on their poses. If your character is very flashy, make a point of highlighting other characters in the scene. If your character is not, try to find a reason why they might speak up or interact-- even if it's out of their comfort zone.

Pondscum

@Arkandel said in Good writin'.:

@Auspice I think I've mentioned this before but...

We were in a three-person scene that had been going on for a bit when this guy comes in from outside. Immediately, and without waiting to see what was going on or ask OOC what we wanted to do, he posts about him being bloodied because of the pitchfork-carrying mob outside trying to get'im.

In all my years in the game that was the grossest attention-seeking I've actually seen in practice. I still can't quite imagine a bigger 'fuck you and what you were doing before, from now on it's about me' than that.

If you were in a public grid spot and someone pulled that, it's fair game! Yes, it'd probably be annoying, but if you were in a bar or restaurant RL, a car can come crashing through the window, a psychopath can run in with a knife or some bitch from hell can come in and flip out that you're cozying up with her partner. It's impossible to control the world around you and if you're needing no interruptions your best bet is a private room.

Seraphim73

@Auspice said in Good writin'.:

That's the key: visualize. (Yes even if it means imagining the many-tentacled-beast.)

This is something that goes beyond just writing within a pose (but I agree is very important within the pose too), but gets into creating characters that fit the theme too. One of the hardest things to remember for many players (myself included at times) is that your character is a product of the world they grew up in, not this world (unless you're on RLMU*, where there's nothing special about the world and it's this one). Did they grow up in austere conditions believing their enclave was the last of humanity on Earth? Then they're probably going to react pretty big to any proof that they're not the last of their kind. Did they grow up in Imperial space, swarmed by Imperial propaganda from age 5? It's probably going to take a big shock to get the to join the Rebel Alliance.

It feeds into good writing within a pose, but stretches beyond that... in order to interact with a world in a way that makes sense, your character has to be a product of that world, so visualize that world, and what sort of person it would create.

Coin

@Pondscum said in Good writin'.:

@Arkandel said in Good writin'.:

@Auspice I think I've mentioned this before but...

We were in a three-person scene that had been going on for a bit when this guy comes in from outside. Immediately, and without waiting to see what was going on or ask OOC what we wanted to do, he posts about him being bloodied because of the pitchfork-carrying mob outside trying to get'im.

In all my years in the game that was the grossest attention-seeking I've actually seen in practice. I still can't quite imagine a bigger 'fuck you and what you were doing before, from now on it's about me' than that.

If you were in a public grid spot and someone pulled that, it's fair game! Yes, it'd probably be annoying, but if you were in a bar or restaurant RL, a car can come crashing through the window, a psychopath can run in with a knife or some bitch from hell can come in and flip out that you're cozying up with her partner. It's impossible to control the world around you and if you're needing no interruptions your best bet is a private room.

This sort of attitude just kind of glosses over the fact that being polite and considerate is something that would be great. Like, I get it, 'public place, fair to do whatever!' but what this completely ignores is that we're supposed to be playing a cooperative game. Wouldn't you prefer to play that sort of scene with people who want to play it? Why would you foist it on someone who is having fun playing another type of scene already, especially without asking if they'd prefer what you have planned?

You can justify it by saying it's "technically okay" because they were in public, but I can just as readily point out it's fucking awful from a cooperative, social point of view, and disrespectful to other people to boot.

Rook

I've always said that the first group to establish RP in a public place has the privledge of setting tone, action and scene. They took the initiative to get things started, likely have something in mind as to direction and maybe a plot, who knows.

People who join should take the time to meld into the scene, not try and force the scene to adapt to them.

Arkandel

@Coin said in Good writin'.:

This sort of attitude just kind of glosses over the fact that being polite and considerate is something that would be great. Like, I get it, 'public place, fair to do whatever!' but what this completely ignores is that we're supposed to be playing a cooperative game. Wouldn't you prefer to play that sort of scene with people who want to play it? Why would you foist it on someone who is having fun playing another type of scene already, especially without asking if they'd prefer what you have planned?

Yeah, that's exactly where I'm at too. We can have various expectations of the players around us - that they don't treat the game as a sandbox, that they make themselves available for RP to more than their inner circles, that they take into account some in-game themes into consideration for their responses (the metaplot, IC ranks, etc) - but ultimately none of these things are worth a damn if they're forced on people who don't like playing them out right at that time.

So yes, my idea of a cop car chase going badly and the bad guys bursting into the restaurant to take hostages might actually be awesome and fun under most circumstances but if I try to just go ahead and put it into motion even with the best intentions in mind ("this is ten times better than a generic bar scene! these guys are gonna love it!") and be met with 'meh' and unenthusiastic responses then what good does it do anyone?

There's a reason we announce PrPs and allow players to sign up instead of just picking rooms people are already playing in to run them. Opt-in is a great thing.

Thenomain

@Arkandel said in Good writin'.:

There's a reason we announce PrPs and allow players to sign up instead of just picking rooms people are already playing in to run them. Opt-in is a great thing.

ooc Hey guys, I was thinking about running an action scene here about someone on the run from Possessed rednecks; anyone in?

I mean, you don't have to schedule these things to not disrupt another scene.

Arkandel

@Thenomain Yeah, when I say "scheduled" I should have probably just used "offered".

ThatGuyThere

@Rook
I can't speak to this mob incident in particular since I was not there but my money would be onb it being something like @coin described. Rando dude interrupting scene with random npc mob for attention seeking purposes.
the thing is even if dude intends it to be the start of a plot which would be a good thing there is a work of difference between enter the room and saying, "OOC hey i am starting off a plot any mind if I kick it off now." and letting people make decisions based on that and entering the scene and kick starting random crap with out even waiting for a scene set.
I have see it happen the way Ark mentions before on multiple games, pc comes in bleeding to become center of attention, other pcs react including some that go off to look for attackers. Most often attacker are not found no plot is happening victim pc just wants to victim is up.

juke

I don't wanna derail this conversation because I eat this kind of discussion up honestly, but I was sorta hoping some people might have a few game names to toss out based on their own personal, subjective thoughts about solid writing, cos' I have a mighty hankering to find one. It's cool that not everybody will agree about the definition of good writing, especially for my purposes...I tend to write to the environment and if the prose is at least compelling, I am pretty happy. So debate on, but if you could toss me a few promising suggestions also, I'd be much obliged!

Since we're on the subject, though!:

Most of what I'm reading here is failure to read the room properly. I've been on games where the culture will give you a trophy for breaking the buffer, and on games where people get really annoyed if your pose exceeds 3 lines/contains meta/whatever. There's almost always a range of preferences to either end of that spectrum on every game I've ever been on. I get along well with both, but I think that's because I try to know when I go into a scene what the other people in it enjoy so that we can all play to those preferences, and everybody goes home happy.

There are definitely people who derive most of their fun from the attention they get but if we delve into musher psychology this thread will collapse under its own weight in no time. Heh.

EDIT: You know, these days almost all mushing problems for me boil down to two things, which are probably just one thing. 'Whose story is it' and 'do people care about other people's fun as much as their own,' and there are a lot of ways to get both of those things wrong. Which is weird, because they are pretty easy to get right. I might be getting old and cynical/reductive/lazy though.

Three-Eyed Crow

@juke said in Good writin'.:

I don't wanna derail this conversation because I eat this kind of discussion up honestly, but I was sorta hoping some people might have a few game names to toss out based on their own personal, subjective thoughts about solid writing, cos' I have a mighty hankering to find one.

You might have more luck with this if you show us a pose or log you think is well-written. There may be a pose somewhere all of us will objectively think is good, but I sure as hell can't think of what it'd be. I consistently have scenes on Arx and BSU (the only two games I'm active on at the moment) which I think are "good," or I wouldn't continue to play there. But that means nothing beyond that I subjectively had fun for a few hours one time, and to me it's more about engagement with other players and how our characters click than the prose itself (I know lots of perfectly good fiction writers who I consider terrible RPers. I view them as different skill-sets). But games culturally do encourage certain styles, and if there's a style you like, it'd be easier to present examples.

Ghost

I would like to point out my love of time spent writing with @skew @Auspice @surreality @Pondscum Wendigo @Paris @faraday

By no means a complete list, but its 1030, I'm tired, and I cant remember all the @ tags at the moment.

I had a lot of good times with you guys and you're all very vivid and challenging in the way that a good writing partner teaches you to dig deeper and show, not tell. For those of you who haven't had the pleasure, I highly recommend them each for different reasons.

Kind of like working out with someone who pushes you to lift an extra pound in one session more so than you did the last session.

When I write, I don't care about me. I dont care about agenda or what I, myself, want for my character. Instead, when I write I care more about finding the voice of my creation and writing through it. Players like these make it hard to find plateaus where RP stales and becomes rote.

Whenever I dig into this hobby, I always find a lot of comfort working thru people who are less concerned with the direction of plot as they are that it has direction. Cooperative writing requires pushback. I u fuckers. You don't pushback. You bodyslam.

Tinuviel

The only strict requirements I have for poses are thusly wise:

Third person. "He/she/they, not I/you."
Present tense. "He nods and shrugs his shoulders," rather than "He nodded and shrugged his shoulders."
Don't force a (re)action from my character. Play yours, not mine.

Other than that it's a case by case. I can really get into some decently thought out poses that others might find a bit purple-y. Depends on mood, atmosphere, alignment of the planets, whether I've had caffeine, et cetera.

juke

@Ghost I identify with all of this.

Players who know how to follow organic RP down the rabbit hole complete me. It's astounding the kind of story that can emerge.

My favorite RP buddy and I like to say 'no safe words' because we can't get enough of the intensity that comes from really committing to a character, never forcing anything, but always following the story wherever it goes. I do realize that this isn't everybody's cup of tea and it requires trust, but man, when things click..!

juke

@Three-Eyed-Crow I understand why you're asking, but I think I would have a lot of difficulty giving examples because as I mentioned before I'm happy in a lot of different writing environments. I will stomach much more purple prose than a lot of people are willing to, and I don't mind snappy, minimalist poses, either.

I think 'command of language' is maybe as close as I can get. Not just to turn a pretty phrase (though I like that) but also because it creates ambiance and mood, cuts closely to the essence of a story beat, captures something compelling about a character, etc.

You can do that in a lot of words or in just a few, so it's hard to describe a specific style, but for me it's like Justice Potter Stewart said of obscenity: I know it when I see it.

Paris

@Ghost Thank you. You were always wonderful to RP with, and please come to F&L if you ever return to MUing.

Unfortunately I think the rest of us are all on different games, too. :<