Original Sci-Fi?
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@surreality It was not my intention to make anyone feel stupid and I'm sorry if it came across that way.
Editing the rest because the first stab was poorly written.
To many people, science is an integral part of science fiction, and sci-fi that ignores basic science/tech facts is viewed just as poorly as a historical movie that tromps all over history or a medical drama that gets all the medicine wrong.
Suspension of disbelief is always a thing, but there's a difference between swallowing basic tenets of "what if" that make the theme possible (e.g. space travel or AI) and something obviously impossible (like bullets shooting around corners or radiation melting people). The latter just seems like lazy/silly writing, unless there's some explanation to why the basic laws of physics don't apply here.
None of this means that people are stupid for liking things that "get it wrong". It just means that different people have different tolerances for when it's acceptable to suspend their disbelief versus when something takes their disbelief into a back alley and beats it senseless.
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@surreality said in Original Sci-Fi?:
Since this seems to be the #1 pastime of sci-fi games, I consider them an unfriendly environment on the whole, often to the point of active hostility and ugly condescension in the same way the people who are obscure comics lore experts railing about how so-and-so is 'doing it wrong' in their portrayal of a character are obnoxious, or it would be obnoxious for me to OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG SO STUPID DID YOU SEE THAT HEADPIECE?!?!?! WHAT SERVING GIRL CAN AFFORD THOSE PEARLS; THIS IS CRAZY! at people enjoying an episode of Reign, and modeling something they do on an L&L game on that dubiously accurate ensemble.
If you don't think people do this on L&L games, you have never played an L&L game.
There are spottily-informed theme dictators everywhere (and people playing with zero adherence to anything resembling theme that make them feel empowered, also everywhere).
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@faraday I don't think you had any intention of doing that -- you have never struck me as someone who would intentionally do so. Unfortunately, it does have that effect, in the same way the costume thing does.
It's just that most other genres, people will call this out as making things less enjoyable; since most of us are at least somewhat tech savvy (most of us have been doing this for so long we would have had to be tech geeks in yon days of yore, so we collectively like tech or have some level of interest) this one tends to fly under the radar of 'can be problematic', and it's just the most pronounced in the sci-fi genre.
@Three-Eyed-Crow As somebody actually trained in costuming, even I want to hit those people. They are the enemies of fun.
Both of these things are why I think it's a good idea to set a basic level of detail with the 'can do' and 'can't do'; it sets a good expectation of what people should be willing to know/would or reasonably could know IC, and doesn't have creators chasing down every possible permutation of something a player might possibly try some time and fact-check tech that doesn't exist for plausibility -- but let players flesh that out further if they are experts to share with others who are similarly interested in exploring that area (and will likely have a comparable level of understanding of the subject as compared to Everyman Joe).
What @ThatGuyThere mentions about the tech having ten tons of detail people are expected to read and know, without a comparable level of cultural info, is another hurdle. 'Somewhere in the middle with room to grow' strikes me as a better way to allow for different interests, pretty much.
Oh fucking well.
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@surreality said in Original Sci-Fi?:
It's just that most other genres, people will call this out as making things less enjoyable;
See, that hasn't been my experience. In every genre I've ever played, you have a gulf created by different levels of suspension of disbelief. The "that's not the way it should be" crowd versus the "it's just a game" crowd, if you will. Historical, sci-fi, fantasy, military, even modern day. I know from tales here it happens in comic games and L&L. Is there seriously a genre out there where it doesn't happen?
Often the "that's not the way it should be" crowd gets painted as the "bad guys" for making it un-fun on the people who don't want so much realism. But the fact is that the "it's just a game" crowd can make things just as un-fun for the people who like a grittier setting. It's important to set appropriate expectations for a game, because you can't please both sides.
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@faraday That's definitely a thing -- it's why there needs to be a baseline. The baseline absolutely must be there.
Going beyond the baseline -- wherever that game sets it, and on whatever subject -- has to be optional.
The behavior exists everywhere. The difference is that I've not seen people call it out as elitist or 'theme dictator'ing in sci-fi. I do see that in other genres, though, and it's a difference that makes a potent... uh, difference. (Can I use the word 'difference' one more time in this paragraph, yeesh! o.o )
Oh fucking well.
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@surreality said in Original Sci-Fi?:
Since this seems to be the #1 pastime of sci-fi games, I consider them an unfriendly environment on the whole, often to the point of active hostility and ugly condescension in the same way the people who are obscure comics lore experts railing about how so-and-so is 'doing it wrong' in their portrayal of a character are obnoxious, or it would be obnoxious for me to OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG SO STUPID DID YOU SEE THAT HEADPIECE?!?!?! WHAT SERVING GIRL CAN AFFORD THOSE PEARLS; THIS IS CRAZY! at people enjoying an episode of Reign, and modeling something they do on an L&L game on that dubiously accurate ensemble.
Gah, that reminds me of watching The Russian Ark with my mother, it is this absolutely insane experimental film that was recorded as a single 96 long minute sequence through the Winter Palace in St Petersburg. What did my mother, an expert on historical clothing, spend the entire time doing? Yes, complaining about how the costumes were from wildly varying periods and should not be next to each other.
Then again that is not entirely invalid for making a consistent and deep world for people to RP in, what people wear and when is a huge part of society and for that matter? Textiles were one of the major drivers for the non agricultural economy throughout most of history. If silk is imported from a foreign land who only take silver in payment and its popularity is driving a trade deficit/bullion shortage? That is meaty economic plot beyond 'Meet X for tea, agree to a handwaved trade deal, get some benefit', right there.
It is the same with tech in a sci-fi setting. Ideally you want enough top level detail to allow for emergent details and people to get their head into the setting, but you cannot go into too much detail because 1) People do not have time to read that shit or inclination to care and 2) Other people will care far too much and will pick apart every detail for inconsistencies that allow them some advantage.
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@packrat said in Original Sci-Fi?:
Yes, complaining about how the costumes were from wildly varying periods and should not be next to each other.
Did... did she not realize that was the point?
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@auspice said in Original Sci-Fi?:
Did... did she not realize that was the point?
I know, they are ghosts. Still apparently not justified for Reasons though, I forget the precise Reasons.
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See, I have absolutely been that person (thought I have not seen that specific film). I have so been that person. But I will only let myself be that person with a like mind who is as amused as I am, and I would feel like a giant jerk giggling and pointing at things or grousing or eye-rolling about it around others who were just enjoying it for what it was.
I can sum up my tolerance/understanding/patience/complete unwillingness to go there thusly: I worked at a Ren Faire.
For any costume geek who has done the same, this does not require the translation: 'I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced.'
(I just had to cross the streams like that, y'all, I could not even resist, I'm sorry. But only a little.)
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@surreality said in Original Sci-Fi?:
The difference is that I've not seen people call it out as elitist or 'theme dictator'ing in sci-fi.
For someone who was getting bent out of shape that I indirectly made you feel stupid for liking something, you seem awfully eager to call people out directly as "elitist theme dictators... (you) want to hit ... the enemies of fun" for liking the opposite thing.
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@surreality said in Original Sci-Fi?:
The behavior exists everywhere. The difference is that I've not seen people call it out as elitist or 'theme dictator'ing in sci-fi. I do see that in other genres, though, and it's a difference that makes a potent... uh, difference.
To you, perhaps, but I've seen a lot of "theme dictatoring" in sci-fi games, and less in fantasy-history games.
I mean, far be it for me to want some consistent theme in Changeling: the Lost, wtf, right?
To that end, though, so what? If staff or players are telling me things that my PC should or should not be doing on BSG:U, that's fine. I would be the first to tell you that my grasp on the setting isn't the best. And I'll have a healthy debate when it comes to WoD Vampire spheres.
To me, folks that toss around "oh you're wrong-funning me" liberally do so because they can't be bothered to actually think about what they are doing. It's often a dismissal of a reasonable attempt to keep a uniform or consistent theme, and, frankly, I don't expect staff to tolerate it.
How about, instead, actually listening?
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What's jarring and incredibly immersion breaking to one person will be easily handwaved and tossed aside by someone else. It's a moving target and I don't think there's anything you can do but pick a point, make it a communal standard, and anyone above or below that point is nudged towards it. Obviously the closer to a standpoint of needing expertise, the more niche it will be, but the further it moves from it the harder it will be for it to be satisfying for anyone that's an expert in the field.
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I think one of the big issues is that everyone has a different breaking point for suspension of disbelief and it often hinges on their own experiences. For example in sci fi for me, as long as the techno-babble is internally consistent I can roll with it, but internal inconsistency will drive me bonkers.
I realize his is not true for everyone so if i am in a situation where people are discussing the nuts and bolts I basically smile and nod.Also on the Russian ark, watch it if you have not seen it. It is one of those movies that everyone should see once. It is a gorgeous movie and the fact that is it one continuous shot is simply amazing to me. (The documentary of the making of the movie In One Breath is also well worth the watch, if only to make the accomplishment of the film itself seem more impressive.)
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I think one important point that @ThatGuyThere made that got a little lost in other discussion is the need for original sci-fi to talk about daily life at least as much as tech. What do people do for fun, what do they do for careers? Not just the PCs (although that's incredibly important, obviously), but also the generic person on the street. This is why modern-day games are so easy: we all know what our character can do if they've got 15 minutes to themselves, or an hour, or an afternoon. We know what food is like, we know what music is like, we know what sports and games are out there. And this is all incredibly important for other genres too.
For BSG: what music does a rich Caprican listen to? How is it different from what an Aerilonian farmer listens to?
For Star Wars: what type of people enjoy grav-ball (either the type in zero-g or the field version) versus what type of people enjoy limmie?
For Game of Thrones: what sort of games do kids play, and what do bored nobles do to pass the time?
All of this information can really enrich the world, and the characters living in it, a whole lot more than knowing how a teleporter works.
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@seraphim73 said in Original Sci-Fi?:
All of this information can really enrich the world, and the characters living in it, a whole lot more than knowing how a teleporter works.
I think you can make the same argument with culture though. Some of it is absolutely vital, just as some of the tech stuff is vital. But beyond that, people have different tolerances for handwavium.
I'm perfectly happy handwaving "She's listening to Caprican music" without needing details about what Caprican music is like. Is it hiphop? Classical? What do those terms even mean when you try to apply them to a completely alien society with twelve worlds not rooted at all in Earth customs?
Same with sports. BSG has pyramid and you can give a few shorthand notes, but a lot needs to be handwaved unless you want people to read an encyclopedia on the subject. And what about the other sports and games? Would they even have golf? Chess? Where do you stop describing things?
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@faraday I agree, I think that just as with tech, there is a tipping point into "too much detail." I think that that tipping point is further out with culture/entertainment than it is with tech, but that may well just be me. I think that knowing how the tech works doesn't necessarily make for richer characters (but it can make for richer stories), but that knowing how the culture works definitely makes for richer characters.
For example: Clone Trooper 4646 and Clone Trooper 1231 are talking.
4646: "There's a great grav-ball bar down the street, we could totally hang out there since we're off-duty."
1231: "Grav-ball? Man, I can't stand that stuff. Limmie is where it's at."Sure, that's nice, but if you know something about grav-ball (football-ish) and limmie (soccer)?
4646: "There's a great grav-ball bar down the street, we could totally hang out there since we're off-duty."
1231: "Grav-ball? You want to watch people line up for two hours and play for one? I don't know how you can call yourself a clone trooper and not love limmie, man. It's the beautiful game, it's small unit tactics in a ball-game. Everyone always moving, having to adjust on the fly?"
<insert argument back and forth on the relative merits of the two games and how they relate to being a clone trooper>Now, I totally agree that you can say that a character is "listening to Caprican music," and that alone can tell you a great deal about the character (especially if they aren't Caprican), but I love being able to dig into the nitty-gritty of why a character likes a given thing, and what that says about them. Then again... I'm a nerd.
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@seraphim73 said in Original Sci-Fi?:
I think that that tipping point is further out with culture/entertainment than it is with tech, but that may well just be me.
I don't think it's just you at all, but I do think it's different for different people.
We shouldn't be crying 'wrongfun' just because you'd prefer knowing the details of gravball (to some extent) and I am content with "football-ish".
We shouldn't be crying 'wrongfun' just because I'd prefer knowing how the teleporter works (to some extent) and you're content with "it's a teleporter".
We shouldn't be coming down like a ton of bricks on people who make a theme mistake: "OMG don't you know anything? Gravball is only played with 5 people."
We shouldn't be treating people like they're evil just for politely asking people to RP the theme. "Oh, actually... gravball teams usually have 5 people."
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It's the cultural details that make a setting come alive, when the technical ones give it a basic structure. Take Battlestar Galactica, for instance. The AIs, the galactic jumpdrive and such are interesting, but 'robots going bad' isn't a particularly interesting plot hook.
Now, 'We came from somewhere else and we can find that place again to hide from them' is a plot hook. That's cultural. As are the differences between the various colonial mindsets and such.
Tech is usually plot device, while culture is usually plot.
ETA:
Except for the slave miner episode. THAT was some serious 'tech as plot' goodness.
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@faraday Agreed on all points.
I generally think it's more important to know what tech can do than how it does it (Can you teleport through shields? Can you teleport through solid rock? Can you block teleportation with other tech?) because this is the sort of thing that informs how it can be used in plots (as @Collective noted).
Maybe there's a similar balance with culture. I know that there's a tipping point where you're giving too much information about the culture ("OMG, don't you know anything? Gravball is only played with 5 people. Didn't you read page 13 of the Culture section?"). I also know that most games are well short of this point (in my opinion).
(I also-also know that I like parenthetical comments.)
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@faraday said in Original Sci-Fi?:
@surreality said in Original Sci-Fi?:
The difference is that I've not seen people call it out as elitist or 'theme dictator'ing in sci-fi.
For someone who was getting bent out of shape that I indirectly made you feel stupid for liking something, you seem awfully eager to call people out directly as "elitist theme dictators... (you) want to hit ... the enemies of fun" for liking the opposite thing.
I was directly quoting @Three-Eyed-Crow with 'theme dictator'.
@three-eyed-crow said in Original Sci-Fi?:
There are spottily-informed theme dictators everywhere (and people playing with zero adherence to anything resembling theme that make them feel empowered, also everywhere).
And yes, someone intentionally bullying or belittling others with the behavior we all know is problematic and elitist, nitpicking others in their area of expertise because they're an expert and someone playing the thing isn't and is just going by game information, is behaving badly and is stomping on someone else's fun to puff themselves up.
This has not even been a question before this thread in recent years. Everyone in the thread has confirmed the existence of this behavior in multiple genres, where it is deemed a bad thing.
There is not a question that people reaming people out for not remembering what Batman did in issue #327 of a comic (or knowing in the first place) published in 1960 that was a side tangent about how he likes his steak cooked to Alfred is being a nit-picking jerk.
There's no question that if I went to an L&L game and tossed out an uninvited public historical critique of someone's desc in the OOC room based on the fact that the color of her dress would have been illegal in that part of the world for her social caste due to the scarcity of dyestuffs on a game in which this is not publicized or enforced, I would be being a complete jerk.
There's no question that if a long-time RL nurse on a WoD game got up in someone's business about a log in which specific procedures for installing or maintaining a long-term IV or PICC line were mistaken or they missed a step, they would be behaving like a complete jerk.
This is the kind of behavior I'm talking about and only now am I seeing it being not labeled as problematic and invasive pedantry, which is kinda proving my point to me about this genre being the only one where this behavior isn't called out as being obnoxious, and is instead embraced and expected as part of the genre culture.
I have already said, repeatedly throughout the thread, 'a baseline level of knowledge is necessary', that games should set this baseline and make it available. All of these examples go well beyond baseline knowledge of a subject and are the behavior I am calling 'elitist'.
I don't think I'm wrong to do so, either, or am in any way saying someone who has no knowledge at all or can't even be bothered to read a wiki is not also an equally aggravating problem, since I've already said that is, in fact, also a real problem.
The middle is where it's at.
If you can't be bothered to get to the middle through reading the game files or doing at least a decent TV-level glance-over the subject matter, or if the middle isn't good enough for you and you can't contain yourself from expressing 'OMG this is so totally awful', however? (Generic) you are creating problems for others with your behavior.
Oh fucking well.
