Storytelling

[Rook]

Kinda makes me of the mind to award less XP/Reward since there was very little RP. Powers should be a backup, not the go-to. Just my opinion, though. I mean, if they are going to +jobs everything, why RP? We should be able to play by paperwork, right? I mean, shit, we're all busy people... who has time for all this /roleplaying/?

[mietze]

I've run into that playstyle often enough that I'm pretty sure there are a few mushes or have been where that's just how things were done. It's frustrating to me because while I do like to toss dice (more for the random opportunity to fail and fail horribly), to me that's not really the kind of role playing that enjoy. I want to see real poses, ect.

If this is on a place where the above isn't the predominant culture, I'd be inclined to push a bit. (We're not going to do this via request, we're going to resolve it in rp, so the info you receive and how will be tied in part to your poses and not just OOCly stated actions). If it is the culture though, or the vast majority of the group and that's what they like though...harder call. I think the ST should get to have fun too, but sometimes you have to work with the ooc capabilities of the group too, and not everyone is going to meet your personal play standards all of the time, you know?

[Arkandel]

@Rook There are a few issues with that though.

1. I don't think it's up to me (or any ST) to define what rewards are given, it's up to game policy.

2. Just because it's my preference to throw powers/dice around less and pose more it doesn't necessarily mean I'm right, you know? That's why I'm asking here, maybe this is a legitimate play style, dunno.

Having said that, my first inclination was to simply do what the players seemed to be more accustomed to and run the part of the plot for them over a +comm job. The idea was they'd simply roll dice in there and I'd act as a glorified 80s text adventure game engine - but it doesn't work.

For starters usually this is happening alongside other people in a 'live' PrP so there are some really impractical logistics in having to run two separate things simultaneously if one is in real time and the other basically play-by-job. The other issue is that it scales very poorly since I have to basically play 1 on 1 story vendor instead of running one plot that 4-5 people are part of. It's the rough equivalent of table-top where one person in the party has to be taken to another room and treated separately, it's a lot of extra work.

I find it hard to believe it's a unique experience that I simply ran into more than one player like that. Has anyone else dealt with a similar situation (possibly while running plot for Mages) and if so, how did you deal with it?

[Misadventure]

If it's an issue of having the powers means the players bypass interacting with actual situation routinely (telepathy, remote viewing in time and space), then I don't play with the powers. Champions dealt with this issue by calling it a deaden powers trope: the armchair telepath. Sure you are interacting with the plot, but you aren't playing the game that was presented. So no to the powers. I know you can't do that in Mage etc, but I would still do SOMETHING to make sure play was happening. And yes, I don't care if that is someone's play style, They can find another pollen, or another game to do that in.

If the issue is the player's style of play, well engage that before you bother with such a scene. Communication with sentients has become like investigating a scene as a CSI, or hacking in cyberpunk games, and you do not have any need for something that interacts with the characters. I might even have fun slowly isolating and dehumanizing the characters for this, but I would certainly not waste time with everything else. All those scene details, personalities, they are just adjectives on non-interactive objects. I wouldn't care if the players wanted to go do this AND get put through the scene. As a ST I don't do bar chat. If the character is meant to go RP about the information with others, they can. If they were meant to have some characterization, well they can do that on their own time. It's their choice if they want to bypass the player to player role-play.

[Thenomain]

@Arkandel said:

I get little feedback from the players - although when I ask them over pages if they're enjoying this they are, which, okay - but I can't engage them in actual roleplay

When the Senior VP of Blizzard North went on an Internet tirade explaining how Diablo 2 is an RPG, in the sense of computer games, I was one part bemused, one part baffled.

P&P RPGs are also rolling buckets of dice, but in the example I didn't see attempts for you to engage the players. Where is the drama of the situation? Did you, e.g., tell them that they get a ping and suddenly the guy looks more alert? Did you mess up their plans with innocent bystanders? Do you throw them red herrings?

Sarcastically, your problem could be Mage players, but I know that pretty much every RPG ever has this kind of player. If managing their over-gaming is important for your fun, then start messing with the expectations of the players.

[il-volpe]

Hah. I am hesitant to ever throw a red herring, because people tend to assume that everything is one.

Specifics have been changed: I run a scene. The psychic character's psychic powers reveal to her that she is going to see a strange house behind that next stand of trees. The characters go look. There's a chicken there. The psychic character pages me, "But you said it would be a house!" I page back, "I did indeed." Psychic character jumps to the conclusion that I'm just messing with her, even though her roll was good. She doesn't tell the other characters about her vision of the house. Bedamned if I am going to reward this bullshit. So I have just run a plot scene where all that happened is the characters saw a chicken. Later I'll throw the same plot hook at a different group of characters and hope they actually investigate in a reasonable way, all the while praying that my new reputation as the GM who thinks seeing a chicken is a plot event does not cause them to avoid me.

[Arkandel]

I was going over my notes for an upcoming Eldritch story and I thought I'd toss this here, too.

If at all possible try to not tie plot advancement to anything time-sensitive. There's a high chance it will end in disappointment because it's so difficult to predict critical people's availability for it.

So for example the NPC you brought in to yell at the characters and remind them they need to act now or the world will end... don't do that unless you absolutely must. So many things can go wrong - maybe your computer fries, maybe a couple of key PCs' players get really busy at work and need some time off, and then you have to figure out why the world didn't end up ending after all.

It's much more efficient to keep the plot structure largely reactive with the PCs being the dynamic part that sets other elements reeling (so instead of "we need to interrupt the ritual tomorrow night at midnight!" use "we need to break in and destroy the cursed statue they plan to use in the ritual!"), with some leeway for you to still be able to prod the players into action so they can get off their ass and do something if they procrastinate.

[Arkandel]

Open question: What are the things you like the most in the PrPs you're participating? What makes a great one greater than an average one?

In other words if you looked at some of the most fun plots you've been in, what did they seem to have in common? Be specific with the elements you enjoyed or their structure if you can though, as "they were awesome because <ST X> is awesome!" is less useful than "its scenes started and finished on time and had a sympathetic villain".

[Misadventure]

Shortest version: sparked discussion and debate relevant to resolution, and the PCs.

[ThatGuyThere]

The plots I remember most are those that are relevant to the character. I understand not every plot will be like this and also I don't tend to go to open call type prps most of the ones I am in are run my someone I know who also knows the character I am playing. For example on an oWoD I was playing a changeling that was an actor attending college, the plot was that one of the major donors to the program was pulling out support. so my char and the rest of his motley tried to prevent that. there ended up being no combat and the plot was more mystery then conflict driven but it felt so important because success or failure both would have a major impact on my PC.
I have been in other PRPs that while fun has less of an impact on me because the consequences were more generic yes my PC could have been killed but he had no emotion skin in the game so to speak.

[Thisnameistaken]

1. It moves along. There is nothing more frustrating than waiting an hour between poses because each player is taking 20 minutes to pose. If players are too preoccupied to pay attention to the prp, they should not join the prp. If it's the STer taking an hour, then perhaps it's time for a new STer.

2. Players engage the plot (are proactive in exploring, trying things, interacting with others). None of that player hanging in the background not posing until something happens where they can be a badass (or up and DCing/leaving if they don't get a chance to show off).

3. Smaller. After 4-5 people, things start to get too chaotic to focus on properly. A 16 person combat scene is a nightmare waiting to happen.

4. STer versatility. I've been known to catch STers off guard at times (Sorry about your gryphon @arkandel). I've been caught off guard by players, myself. The bests prps are when the STer, be it myself or others, can roll with it, even play off of it.

5. It doesn't have to be combat. Combat can be fun but most of the time it slams a scene to a halt as dice are thrown (or maybe doesn't even start for an hour because someone wants to cast 10 powers before the scene even /starts/). The best plots I've seen have been ones that focus on other obstacles (puzzles, non-traditional combat such swarms Ihateswarms, social aspects, mental aspects, characters weaknesses or backgrounds being played on, etc) rather than just 'oh hey, it's another monster, let's attack it'.

I can think of a lot more, but those are some of the biggies for me.

[Arkandel]

@Thisnameistaken said:

4. STer versatility. I've been known to catch STers off guard at times (Sorry about your gryphon @arkandel). I've been caught off guard by players, myself. The bests prps are when the STer, be it myself or others, can roll with it, even play off of it.

I don't enjoy it as much while I ST if a plot goes exactly as I planned it. It's not because it feels boring but because I wonder if I've managed to engage my players, and not knowing for sure if they feel they're being railroaded into the story. Which is very difficult to find a balance with since giving too much freedom can catch some players like deers in the headlights and they stall without me prodding them.

So yeah, smash your cars into those damn gryphons. At least then I know for sure there's some interaction.

3. Smaller. After 4-5 people, things start to get too chaotic to focus on properly. A 16 person combat scene is a nightmare waiting to happen.

Only combat? Even social scenes when they are large enough are a pain. On SHH I let the scale get out of my control though, the plot became too large and pulled in too many people to the point where some were alienated (understandable...) and one lashed out at me OOC for not answering their +jobs fast enough (... less so). On Eldritch I'm trying a smaller model which is based on a smaller group of players across spheres.

@ThatGuyThere said:

The plots I remember most are those that are relevant to the character. I understand not every plot will be like this and also I don't tend to go to open call type prps most of the ones I am in are run my someone I know who also knows the character I am playing.

That's another tough issue to set up as a ST.

For starters there's a risk in taking over someone's toys - using NPCs from your PC's background but giving them a different voice than you had for them, for example, or altering/doing things to them you might not like if you were planning on utilizing them elsewhere in the future.

There's also the fact you mention in that a ST won't always know people's characters, and the ones I'm familiar with are (naturally) ones played by friends - but unless I'm content with running plot exclusively for my immediate circle of buddies I risk crafting stories which revolve around those specific people.

[ThatGuyThere]

@Arkandel
I would suggest doing this by talking to the player, before running talk to the folks you are thinking of inviting to it. Now this doesn't help a whole lot on the put up a +event style of PRPs. But they are a different beast then event the post on a board I have an idea who is interested sort of prps.

For example lets say you have an idea about running a plot dealing with a cult trying to summon something you put up a post to check interest. Things go good and you get a bunch of responses, well after getting those responses talk to the people, see what about the players. Ask them both what they find interesting about the idea and what draws their character to it. Sometimes it is impossible to alter things to suit them but it is usually modify it to suit the particulars.
Another suggestion is to rp with the chars if possible before hand even just a bar scene can give you a feel for both the player and her character.

[Roz]

@Arkandel said:

Open question: What are the things you like the most in the PrPs you're participating? What makes a great one greater than an average one?

In other words if you looked at some of the most fun plots you've been in, what did they seem to have in common? Be specific with the elements you enjoyed or their structure if you can though, as "they were awesome because <ST X> is awesome!" is less useful than "its scenes started and finished on time and had a sympathetic villain".

Mulled this over with folks on one of my games, most of which I've been RPing with and GMing with for years and years now. A few things stood out:

1. Pacing. This applies both to the plot as a whole and the individual scenes. GMs who manage to run a tight ship and actually contain a plot scene to two hours deserve your undying love. Two to three is also pretty great. This requires people to keep posing promptly, and it sometimes requires a GM to speak up and ask people to cut down their poses for the sake of keeping things rolling. Nothing kills a scene more than those lulls when suddenly everyone stops posing for fifteen minutes and the GM is left to be like, "Do you guys -- need something else from me to keep posing?" We have this really great, enthusiastic player GM on one of my games, and one thing she's like epically good at is pacing her scenes and keeping them at a totally reasonable length. It helps that she happens to get home a bit late and has to start up her scenes later than we'd generally start a GMed scene.

2. Preparation. This applies to both GMs and players. From the GM standpoint, have all your shit together before the plot and/or scene starts. Do you need to flesh out your NPCs? Make sure you've got your guide ahead of time. Need a quick map for players? Have it done with plenty of time before the scene starts. For players, figure out the player plan before the scene starts for instances where you're in more of the player-driven part of the plot. (We have all this info and background, now as a team we're going to do X and Z and that's our general plan for tonight!) It's so frustrating when the scene time rolls around and the players knew before what that evening was going to be focused on, but they've given no thought about how they want to do anything.

3. Flexibility. Everyone always says this one, but they say it because it's so important. You should totally make plans and preparations for your plot and should know the background of your happenings, but also know that GM plans never survive first contact with the players. This can frustrate GMs, but things can really take off when GMs learn to embrace this and learn how to flex and redirect their plot to embrace the actions of the players. Never give players a hard improv "no." Wherever possible, give them a "yes." If you have to give them a no, make it a "no, but." That is -- even where players misstep or get things wrong, let that still shape and inform the course of the plot. Identify your players who are doing awesome things, who are really hooking in, and reward them with more cool plot stuff.

4. Personalization. My co-staffers and I like to sort of keep potential hooks for our PCs in the backs of our heads, and we actually did forum posts where we invited players to volunteer potential hooks of their characters that might be incorporated into plots, either staff or PRPs. Especially when it's something players have knowingly volunteered for this general purpose, they tend to really appreciate it. And just in a plot to plot basis, look for ways to develop different hurdles that are customized to the PCs. Someone brought a master lockpicker? Give them some fancy lock to break into. Stuff like that. If you have a bunch of brawlers, probably give them a brawl. Think of ways to shape the plot to the strength of the PCs.

Really the big thing is this: the best plots happen when the GM goes in with the attitude that the plot is for the players. I've had so many bad plots where I swear to God the GM just wanted to crush the players underneath their mighty boot. Fuck that. Make plots about the players.

[Autumn]

This might sound strange, but along with versatility, I like a little direction. Especially in games (cough, Mage, cough) where the number of possible options is not so much 'large' as 'overwhelming', I like having some ideas about what a good next step might be. I might still have a brainwave and decide that I don't really want to investigate the city manager's office or track down one of the mystical owls seen outside the Consilium headquarters just before the attack or bargain with the Mysterium for information stored in their secure library, and instead go off and do something completely different.

Sometimes when I'm told I can do anything at all I just freeze up and can't decide which sounds like the best right now. And while I very much appreciate a storyteller who's willing to indulge me if I decide to order something that's not on the menu, I also appreciate there being a menu if I need to ask for one.

[Roz]

@Autumn said:

This might sound strange, but along with versatility, I like a little direction. Especially in games (cough, Mage, cough) where the number of possible options is not so much 'large' as 'overwhelming', I like having some ideas about what a good next step might be. I might still have a brainwave and decide that I don't really want to investigate the city manager's office or track down one of the mystical owls seen outside the Consilium headquarters just before the attack or bargain with the Mysterium for information stored in their secure library, and instead go off and do something completely different.

Sometimes when I'm told I can do anything at all I just freeze up and can't decide which sounds like the best right now. And while I very much appreciate a storyteller who's willing to indulge me if I decide to order something that's not on the menu, I also appreciate there being a menu if I need to ask for one.

Not strange at all, and also really important. If the players are really lost, don't just leave them to flail. Give 'em a little something to get them going again. The point isn't to make your plot a puzzle they need the exact right pieces to solve, it's to tell a story.

[Pyrephox]

@Roz said:

@Autumn said:

This might sound strange, but along with versatility, I like a little direction. Especially in games (cough, Mage, cough) where the number of possible options is not so much 'large' as 'overwhelming', I like having some ideas about what a good next step might be. I might still have a brainwave and decide that I don't really want to investigate the city manager's office or track down one of the mystical owls seen outside the Consilium headquarters just before the attack or bargain with the Mysterium for information stored in their secure library, and instead go off and do something completely different.

Sometimes when I'm told I can do anything at all I just freeze up and can't decide which sounds like the best right now. And while I very much appreciate a storyteller who's willing to indulge me if I decide to order something that's not on the menu, I also appreciate there being a menu if I need to ask for one.

Not strange at all, and also really important. If the players are really lost, don't just leave them to flail. Give 'em a little something to get them going again. The point isn't to make your plot a puzzle they need the exact right pieces to solve, it's to tell a story.

So much this. My philosophy increasingly is that failure should lead to complication, not roadblocking, and that players should ALWAYS come out of a scene or interaction with a solid idea of what to do next. Ultimately, no matter what questions a character is asking IC, I feel that the player is always asking the same question OOC: "I am interested in this and would like to be involved. How do I do that?" So any reply or scene that doesn't answer that second question is a failure in my eyes.

[Arkandel]

Here's a question that occurred to me yesterday. Do you think there's an 'unfair' element in some people having regular access to plots when others don't?

Participants in such things often tend to be part of rewarding adventures - meaning they get to be heroes, gain opportunities for status/Renown/etc, are given XP, etc. In some cases they may end up with unique titles, items, recognition by (or even access to) NPCs; this is further compounded by the fact once the plot-ball gets rolling it's even harder for others to keep up since characters who got on board early are ones with a better idea of what's happening and gain invites to further scenes.

Is it a problem or a feature when you see someone else end up with laurels of accomplishment when you might have never even known something was happening or had a chance to become involved? Does it matter to you if the person doing it is in the same group (coterie/pack, etc) as the ST?

[Pyrephox]

@Arkandel In individual cases, it doesn't bother me at all. An average sized city contains at least a few ten thousand people, and I'm absolutely cool with the idea that things might be happening that my character isn't aware of and doesn't have the chance to get in on. ESPECIALLY for PrPs. If someone's taking the time and effort to run something for their fellow players, I don't feel they should be tutted at because they're only doing so for people they enjoy playing with.

However, if there's a persistent and long-term discrepancy in who STAFF-RUN plots get offered to, that's not good. In my opinion, staff should be looking over the playerbase, seeing who hasn't gotten plot goodness, and specifically reaching out to those players to see what's going on. For some players, it's because they're not interested in plots, and that's fine. But some people just don't know how to get on things or have quirky concepts (or, worse, a concept that doesn't stand out at all) that have difficulty getting tapped for plots. In which case, staff SHOULD be pitching some things directly at those people, so that they can join the fun.

[Coin]

I don't think it's unfair, provided everyone had more or less the same chance/opportunity without counting in their own actions or limitations.

If I give everyone the same chance "I am running plots Wednesdays and Sundays" and those plots lead to things such as the ones mentioned above, it's not my fault if you can't make those days because of your life/job/preferences/kids/whatever. It's not. No matter how much people want me to bend, I also have a life, and the days I am willing and able to run things are those days.

Likewise, if suddenly someone gets something from me (in my capacity as staff) and everyone is wondering "gee, how did that person do that, they must be a STAFF FRIEND"... chances are actually much more likely that they opened a +job, or paged me, or something, and asked "hey can I aim for [this]" and I said, "that sounds cool, let's try it!" or even someone putting in an interesting job and me going, "that sounds cool, let's see if I can spin it into a plot!"

But if the players can't make events, don't ask, and don't publicize ideas that interest me and engage me as a storyteller, then what am I supposed to do? Is it unfair that I'm not willing to bend over backwards? I, personally, don't think so.

Now, if they got someone else who was willing to run it and I was unwilling to even speak to that person about details, logistics, and theme re: whatever they wanted (sometimes it's necessary, sometimes it isn't), that would be heinously unfair and inappropriate within our social context.