Favorite Minigames

[Kay]

Crafting minigames are always enthralling to me. As is farming/fishing/treasure hunting/etc. Anything where there's a feeling of a) I actually made a thing! and b) I got a thing! feels rewarding to me. There was some old game I played (maybe a MUD?) where it had randomized treasure in dungeons, so you'd end up with cursed looking jade figurine of three cows etc. I think that may have started my love for randomizers in games in general. That and old school random tables for character generation in old tabletop games.

[Thenomain]

Hm.

Is combat a mini game?

If so, I still don’t think I’ve engaged in a mini game that I’ve really enjoyed, tho I understand that a lot of people liked it on The Greatest Generation.

[Arkandel]

@packrat said in Favorite Minigames:

I have to admit that the gear levels/upgrades system on Arx is one of the things that I really, seriously, do not like about it and definitely a mental barrier to my playing on the game.

I don't want to dig into that one system any further in this thread, but on a more general point for me I think what made a difference was being given the chance to work on something long-termly.

Most games don't have anything like that. We are so very focused on XP we've stopped providing any other venues for advancement in games - it's all of our virtual effort eggs going into this one basket, for better or worse, then we either let it run too full (if everyone has infinite eggs no one cares about them) or cap/automate them (if no one ever has much fewer or more than ten eggs then no one cares about them) into oblivion.

But the games I enjoy are the ones where I have goals - things I want and I can work towards every week. If I can do that through RPing that's awesome - I want to get hooked. It's just that usually there isn't much there to latch onto other than the same systems endlessly recycled and rehashed throughout each new game.

TL;DR - I liked Arx's gear not because it was flawless but because it existed, and gave me reasons to go out and do stuff.

[Pyrephox]

I would really, REALLY dig domain management mini-games, or farming minigames, or animal taming/training minigames. And I think MU*s have a lot of potential to reduce the feeling of 'repetition' by stretching out over time and targeting interesting decisions. Like, a farming minigame doesn't, or shouldn't, need me to log in every day to type +water for each plot of land - It could focus more on the planning of different difficulties of crops, of hardiness and soil, and of events that happen when you do log in - "Rabbits are infesting your crops! What do you do?" and can even tie into a mini-PrP system where you can enlist other people's help to chase rabbits around the field in a scene, and they can roll against a hidden difficulty to the crisis object, and you can see the outcome. And at the end, you get stuff that you can sell to a market for cash, or use in recipes, or whatever.

[faraday]

@arkandel said in Favorite Minigames:

Most games don't have anything like that. We are so very focused on XP we've stopped providing any other venues for advancement in games

I don't want this to come across as wrong-fun, so I'm saying so in advance. To each their own - and if that's what you find fun then I hope you find it.

But this attitude is why I'm kind of burnt out on running games. I view MUSHing as a collective storytelling game. You're there to tell stories. If people aren't going to be motivated to tell stories unless there are carrots on sticks to let them 'advance' ... if people aren't going to be motivated to tell stories unless I build a farming or survival minigame ... then fundamentally they're looking for something I'm not interested in selling. The story is the point. The story should be the only necessary reward. Everything else is just a distraction and room for more OOC competition, sour grapes, or a gap between the haves and have-nots.

(Obviously I have no favorite minigame because I inherently dislike them.)

[Arkandel]

@faraday said in Favorite Minigames:

But this attitude is why I'm kind of burnt out on running games. I view MUSHing as a collective storytelling game. You're there to tell stories.

There's nothing wrong with adding gameplay. WoW isn't made poorer because there's raiding and a separate pet 'minigame', and transmogs for people to pick up cosmetic items through the raids, and a professions system... all of which tie into raiding in different ways (which could be argued is the game's main focus) and which can motivate people to participate in it.

Furthermore there's nothing wrong with letting people have extra gameplay that (generic) you don't care about. On Arx I noticed folks were going through a lot of trouble to pick up and customize some kinda special courier messengers that made me scratch my head, but it entertained them.

Our hobby has its roots in RPGs and no one here needs to be told both stories and loot hunting are part of that. If anything I'd say what I enjoy is part of our tradition than not; the two are not at odds, mutually exclusive or antagonistic with each other so why not?

[faraday]

@arkandel said in Favorite Minigames:

so why not?

@faraday said in Favorite Minigames:

Everything else is just a distraction and room for more OOC competition, sour grapes, or a gap between the haves and have-nots.

You may disagree with my reasons for "why not", which is absolutely fine, but they are nevertheless reasons based on actual experiences.

ETA: I don't think WoW is a good example. It's not built around raiding as a primary mode of gameplay. It's designed as a business to maximize cash flow by appealing to as wide a variety of players with different playstyles as humanly possible. That's why it has elements that appeal to all the different Bartle types. It also has a support system in place to handle that many players with disparate goals and playstyles. I don't think most MUs can handle that dilution of focus.

[surreality]

I enjoyed the random monster slaying on the MOO I started on. It was random time filler if no one was around. These days, I'd be far less into it, and it would feel too much like work.

In fairness, I had just as much fun playing coded scrabble with other folks there OOC. I'd have more fun with this than the former these days, but I am not really inclined to install something along these lines on a game I would hypothetically be running purely because too many OOC social draws, while they may keep butts in seats, so to speak, around doing something sociable and harmlessly competitive and fun (which is a net positive on the community building front OOC), it's a draw away from doing things IC, which I'd want to be the focus. Granted... the way I would ideally set things up, this could potentially be harmless. I dunno.

[Arkandel]

@faraday said in Favorite Minigames:

I don't think most MUs can handle that dilution of focus.

I'm concerned about getting out of topic here (the OP can decide that) but it's a good topic.

I don't think the focus is diluted, that's all. If WoW is too different then surely D&D isn't, and it's been incorporating both story and loot for thirty some years; sure, different campaigns (which I can argue is a similar concept to 'different MUSHes') can definitely focus on one over the other, but the default case is to have both.

[faraday]

@arkandel said in Favorite Minigames:

I don't think the focus is diluted, that's all. If WoW is too different then surely D&D isn't, and it's been incorporating both story and loot for thirty some years; sure, different campaigns (which I can argue is a similar concept to 'different MUSHes') can definitely focus on one over the other, but the default case is to have both.

Yes, for a tabletop RPG I agree. But I don't think MUSHes work well under the tabletop model. This has been mentioned ad nauseam on various threads here. It doesn't scale to larger groups and it doesn't do as well with strangers. I think that the hobby is poorer for trying to stick to that model. But you're right - this is probably veering off topic so I'll shut up now

[Lotherio]

Just for ponderance; what about a minigame that supports the main emphasis of storytelling?

Sort of what @Thenomain may have been getting at by referencing combat as a minigame, one they may not like buy in essance a side element of a MU that some people enjoy or look forward too. If the emphasis on a MU is action oriented story telling with a great combat system (minigame) to add combat on the fly in a manner that doesn't rely on splat books and rules/mechanics knowledge that otherwise slows down game play, does the minigame of combat and maximizing for combat in anyway detract from or add to the action oriented story telling focus?

I like @pyrephox's idea of the farming minigame. This could seem like a distraction, but what if the main focus of the Mu* is on home building and social drama, where the better the garden is just something that helps further story telling, friendly competition between houses, or friendly focus between friends to make a good garden together?

I was seeing correlation between the farming minigame and the house building emphasis we're working on after that post. The house building is more a minigame really, but it adds to the house dominion/dynasty aspect of the story telling we're after right now. Whether its bragging about the house, or being better in some realm of play, its meant to tie in with the story focus overall; similar to individual char sheet and netting XP or Skill gains or some other form of mechanical character growth. Its not needed, I've enjoyed plenty of MUs with no systems or coded combat or character sheets.

I absolutely get the minigame as a deterrent that can absolutely take away focus from RP and story telling. I played SW1 for years, where most people idled on ships all day to do the trade minigame for in-game credit to buy more coded machines (swoop building machines, trade machines, shipyards, ships, etc.) all driven by a game economy that was great stuff but detracted from RP aspects quite often (it could benefit RP and story telling, but more often than not it had PCs idling for hours at a time to get more loot).

Just, 'mini'game could mean an aspect of gameplay that is not necessarily essential to playing on a Mu* but can contribute to the story telling focus?

[Lithium]

I think part of the problem is considering them mini games.

If they are part of the system as a whole, and a part of the focus of the game, then they are not mini-games, they are /part of the game/.

A mini-game to me is something inside the game that has absolutely nothing to do with it, for example:

Being able to play checkers while nothing is happening.

The checkers aren't a part of the game, they're just there as something to /do/ when there is nothing else to do.

[Arkandel]

@lithium said in Favorite Minigames:

I think part of the problem is considering them mini games.

If they are part of the system as a whole, and a part of the focus of the game, then they are not mini-games, they are /part of the game/.

Yeah, agreed.

For example my long-standing gripe about resource management in games is derived, at least in part, from the fact if MU* have implemented it at all it's been in a sloppy layer on top as an afterthought without tying it into any other existing systems or stats in a way that promotes them or generates interesting choices for players to make.

Such systems can not simply coexist with storytelling and roleplaying, they can enhance and even drive these things - if done right. But we judge them by those sloppy implementations ("Vampires can type +hunt 3=I ate a homeless person!") and project their overall uselessness. Well, yeah, +hunt if done that way is worse than useless, but that doesn't need the case.

[Apos]

@faraday said in Favorite Minigames:

@arkandel said in Favorite Minigames:

I don't think the focus is diluted, that's all. If WoW is too different then surely D&D isn't, and it's been incorporating both story and loot for thirty some years; sure, different campaigns (which I can argue is a similar concept to 'different MUSHes') can definitely focus on one over the other, but the default case is to have both.

Yes, for a tabletop RPG I agree. But I don't think MUSHes work well under the tabletop model. This has been mentioned ad nauseam on various threads here. It doesn't scale to larger groups and it doesn't do as well with strangers. I think that the hobby is poorer for trying to stick to that model. But you're right - this is probably veering off topic so I'll shut up now

I don't think it's too off topic if we redirect it very slightly. How about from a perspective of someone that really dislikes minigames and sees them undermining the narrative focus of storytelling on MUs, what would be games that aren't a big deal and aren't disruptive even if they aren't something someone is into? In other words, what would be ones that are tolerable for people that dislike them, and what are ones that would send them running to the door?

Definitely correct me if I'm wrong since I don't want to misrepresent your position, but it sounds like the objection is against anything that represents alternate advancement because it undermines the focus on RP by getting people invested in some kind of progression for characters that aren't narrative/story focused, in a video game-ish way. I can definitely understand that, and from that perspective I'd think things like coded pool games or card games or whatever might be fine, or emotive prompts for story hooks or flavor would be fine, but anything that represents building or investment in developing something progressive would be bad.

I don't really think it's an all or nothing thing for most people and kind of a slow slide between purity of story and crunchy elements that has people invested in feelings of progression that aren't really related to story. I mean, systemless play by post type RP and things like tumblr or whatever are unbelievably popular, and I have a feeling a lot of those folks would probably feel revulsion at using any system to put a more game element to their RP. I enjoy all styles myself, and don't really think anyone is right or wrong and it's just a preference thing to me.

[Sparks]

I think the best systems are ones that aren't required to participate in the game, but which allow people things to do which can impact the storyline without GM involvement.

Arx's clue system is a great example, in my mind. You can RP with people about the clues, share the clues, etc. If people aren't around, you can organize your clues into theories for easy reference or sharing. It feels more meaningful than BarP, because the clues tie into the metaplot. But you don't need to participate in the investigation system to play; you can get clues from others, or just rely on people who have gathered lore to pull you into the actions those lore bits inspire.

Games like Texas Hold'Em or Scrabble are fun minigames, but I kind of agree with others that they're toys that don't always lead people to add to the story.

[Three-Eyed Crow]

I consider myself pretty mini-game agnostic. I'm not a person who gets much out of MMOs, and I feel like my ambivalence for MU mini-games comes from the same place. I tend to go to single-player games to enjoy grind (Stardew Valley 4 life) but on games where there's a need to be social it feels focus-splitting in a way that ends up kind of stressing me out. I'm not the type of player who will ever be drawn to an RP game because of its equipment system or its crafting system, and they're things I begin to resent if they're necessary to push through to actually go out and RP (my hate-on for stuff like eating/drinking code lives here). This is a personality thing, though. The players who love this stuff LOVE it and it doesn't seem to make them less engaged in actual RP. Different strokes (seriously, though, don't try to make me love crafting).

That said, if they're truly optional and just side pieces, I have no hate and will play with them and enjoy them sometimes. I think coded poker/pool/darts actually can spur RP in fun little ways, even if they are just toys, the same way having a dice system where players can dick around with random rolls among themselves can lead to fun and unexpected RP. I also think grid exploration games (where you can discover secret rooms or world lore by reading descs carefully) can be very immersive, though you have to be careful that they don't take away from the grid being easy to navigate and functional.

I don't really view combat as a 'mini-game' in the way I think @Apostate is talking about. On The Greatest Generation, for example, it required a GM to run and was very much central to the major-game. It can be turned into a mini-game: the sparring on Arx that players can run amongst themselves is a mini-game I end up playing quite a bit and has led to some cool scenes/meetings with new PCs.

ETA: I'd actually be curious what people think constitutes a mini-game. Like, the @clue system on Arx I consider a vital part of the game in terms of interaction with the metaplot and story. Same with h-space on the games that use it for travel (and the combat on something like TGG). These were things that, if you aren't into them, they aren't something you can really avoid. Whereas, not being into crafting has usually been pretty shrughands for me.

[faraday]

@apos said in Favorite Minigames:

Definitely correct me if I'm wrong since I don't want to misrepresent your position, but it sounds like the objection is against anything that represents alternate advancement because it undermines the focus on RP by getting people invested in some kind of progression for characters that aren't narrative/story focused, in a video game-ish way.

That's a fair assessment. And it's definitely a style thing. Again, I'm really not trying to cry 'wrongfun' here on anyone. I realize that the consent-based narrative style of RP is a dying breed in MUSHland, but that's the kind of MUSH I "grew up" on and that will always be my ideal. (Which may seem ironic coming from someone who designed skills and combat code, but I see those things as necessary evils for my game-running sanity.)

But anyway -- yeah, things like checkers or BSG pyramid/triad code would be harmless diversions. I'd rather just wing it, but if someone wants to use it in a scene it's not going to send me running for the hills.

The systems I dislike are ones that supplant the story, get in the way of telling stories, or limit imagination in ways that I find a hassle. A few examples:

• As @Lotherio mentioned, I've been on several games (including SW1) where people were so focused on the trade/economy minigames that it supplanted RP. People were off doing code-y things and just not involved in telling stories.
• I've been on games resource management systems that got in the way of telling stories. "Oh I'm sorry, I know you have this really cool plot idea involving finding some meds, but you failed your +scavenge roll so sucks to be you..."
• Some folks have mentioned outfit code. While I don't have an issue with this as an optional system, I get really annoyed when I'm forced to +buy and +wear crap just to avoid my character running around naked. It's a hassle. It adds absolutely nothing to the game for me and it's just a drag I have to worry about.

Now as @Arkandel mentioned, some of this is down to crappy minigame design. But that ties into my other issue with all of this...

MUSHes are run by hobbyists. Players now not only expect these volunteer admins to be their personal GMs, constantly feeding them plots, and interpersonal-conflict mediators, but now they also expect them to be expert game designers building fun and engaging 'minigames' (and coding them, too, of course)? Look at some point enough is enough.

(ETA: This isn't a knock on game runners who want to do these things. More power to them. It's the player-side expectation that grates on me and again has led to game-running burnout for me and others.)

[ThatGuyThere]

To me the focus for minigames would be how they can be used to enhance RP. I mentioned the pool game earlier, it could be played without poses but the way i see it used is to provide an IC activity that can be enjoyed. Same goes for various other sorts of IC activity minigames.
While I don't think the farming sort of minigame is necessarily bad, it is something I have zero interest in seeing on a mush at least not all that in depth of one. If I am in the mood for virtual farming there are many many video games that do it better than any MU. Now where I would not mind a farming mini game would be one where i make a couple quick commands and it spits out results that can then be used in RP.
The entire draw of MU*s to me is the human interaction, if I am in the mood for a dungeon crawl or econ sim or whatever else I have video games that do it better. I log on to MUs when I ma in the mood for RP so any amount minigame activity will be at best be viewed as filler until I find RP.

[faraday]

@three-eyed-crow said in Favorite Minigames:

I'm not a person who gets much out of MMOs, and I feel like my ambivalence for MU mini-games comes from the same place.

Sorry for double-post but three-eyed-crow reminded me... Part of my distaste for advancement-based mini-games in MUs stems from seeing the negative effects such competition breeds. Like we discussed the "pilot kill counting" thing on another thread. One would probably consider that a pretty harmless sort of minigame (a scoreboard for how many virtual badguys you'd gotten) but it bred drama almost to the point of toxicity. I've seen the same thing with political advancement systems, loot systems, and promotion/award systems... SO MUCH DRAMA (ETA: OOC drama, that is).

In a tabletop environment you're either among friends or you're in a convention-based environment where you're not likely to interact with those people beyond that session. In a MMO there are millions of players so the competition doesn't usually become personal (setting aside the doxxing/swatting crazies). But in a persistent world with a modest community of strangers... ugh.

[Lithium]

@faraday Drama sort of is the whole point though. Of MUSH'ing, we're writing and creating dramatic situations for these people. So in that respect, drama is sort of the goal

Now OOC Drama is another thing entirely, and the bane of many games existence. It's certainly chased me off of games in the past.