A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion
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@packrat
Nymeria can take a long walk off of a short bridge with that. Running an (official?) wiki and editing an info book doesn't make you an IP manager. -
@kanye-qwest said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
@ixokai said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
A lot of people ignorantly think that you have to defend copyright or you lose it. I don't actually believe any real lawyers are telling any authors that they must say no, though. Its just a sort of urban legend that floats around and people claim to be true.
I mean, I said that because I read an author blog about it, but I'm sure they were lying or ignorant and you are definitely in the know.
Then they have a really, really, really bad lawyer.
But yes, I'm about as well-versed in copyright law as one can be while not being a lawyer. Mostly because my day job has intellectual property lawyers who lecture us about it
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The only C&D letter I recall actually being a thing in MU*'dom was either from Kevin Siembieda cuz he's a fiend about his system not being automated and people not needing the books, and Steve Jackson, cuz, Steve Jackson.
Those were a long time ago though when MU'ing was /much/ bigger.
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@ixokai said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
@kanye-qwest said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
@ixokai said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
A lot of people ignorantly think that you have to defend copyright or you lose it. I don't actually believe any real lawyers are telling any authors that they must say no, though. Its just a sort of urban legend that floats around and people claim to be true.
I mean, I said that because I read an author blog about it, but I'm sure they were lying or ignorant and you are definitely in the know.
Then they have a really, really, really bad lawyer.
But yes, I'm about as well-versed in copyright law as one can be while not being a lawyer. Mostly because my day job has intellectual property lawyers who lecture us about it
So if an author said "sure, I don't care, make whatever you want" and then happened to write something that was very similar to a fan work, that fan could not then turn around and sue the author for copyright infringement, right?
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@ixokai said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
I don't actually believe any real lawyers are telling any authors that they must say no, though. Its just a sort of urban legend that floats around and people claim to be true.
As Kanye said, I have also seen reputable authors directly claim this. Now are they lying to avoid looking like the bad guy? Do they have crappy lawyers? Dunno. But it's decidedly not just an urban legend.
@kanye-qwest said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
So if an author said "sure, I don't care, make whatever you want" and then happened to write something that was very similar to a fan work, that fan could not then turn around and sue the author for copyright infringement, right?
If the author gave away their copyright without limitation, then that's a dumb decision that could cause some weird legal situations. I'd still have a hard time imagining a court upholding Joe FanficAuthor trying to sue George RR Martin for using an idea from a story that is itself derivative of his original books, though.
That aside, the author has sole right to authorize derivative works, and can create whatever contract they wish (within reason) to protect themselves in the process. Saying: "Yes, you can make a MUSH with these conditions" is a perfectly valid way to protect one's copyright as far as I'm aware. And one smart condition to include would be a disclaimer that the MUSH couldn't come back after the author for using coincidentally-similar ideas. Like @ixokai, I am not a lawyer but I am well-versed in copyright law as both an author and someone who's dealt with software intellectual property stuff.
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@kanye-qwest said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
So if an author said "sure, I don't care, make whatever you want" and then happened to write something that was very similar to a fan work, that fan could not then turn around and sue the author for copyright infringement, right?
Well, there's a couple elements to this. First, the owner of a copyright has the right-- among other things-- to decide who and on what terms derivative works are made. There is very little in the way of limits on what these terms can be, and can include as @faraday says a restriction on suing the original author.
But the bigger thing is, you can't copyright ideas at all. Copyright covers a specific, fixed expression. Copyright doesn't stop people from making something similar, it stops people from copying -- or in the case of derivative works, making new works that include substantial portions of another work (ie, your characters and world and such). I find people sometimes confuse copyright's rules with plagiarism's rules, since plagiarism includes copying ideas without attribution as being a no no.
This isn't entirely clear cut because this is America and anyone can sue anyone for anything, and so I can completely understand why an author might want to come out against fan fiction (or mushes) out of not wanting to deal with court headaches. But to say that this is necessary to protect their rights is what I object to.
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@ixokai that's an about face, but a more reasonable position.
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I'd like to see one of the interesting set of "realm" rules in use for a Lords and Lady game, GoT or one made of diamond dust and romance. The Company rules of Reign, the realm improvement stuff from Birthright or any product.
I like having something to do.
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@kanye-qwest said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
@ixokai that's an about face, but a more reasonable position.
About face? I said:
A lot of people ignorantly think that you have to defend copyright or you lose it. I don't actually believe any real lawyers are telling any authors that they must say no, though.
No. Its not. You don't have to defend your copyright or you lose it. And I still don't think any real lawyers are telling authors that they must say no.
Have To and Must are really firm, absolute words.
Especially since with trademarks, you really do have to defend your marks or risk losing them. I have seen people not fully understand the three areas of IP law have very different rules, often.
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@ixokai said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
No. Its not. You don't have to defend your copyright or you lose it. And I still don't think any real lawyers are telling authors that they must say no.
I imagine there are plenty of lawyers who are like "you should say no just so we can all avoid the potential for a possible headache down the line."
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@roz said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
I imagine there are plenty of lawyers who are like "you should say no just so we can all avoid the potential for a possible headache down the line."
Right. "I don't feel like dealing with any potential headaches, however unlikely" is a completely reasonable position to take. "I really don't mind but my lawyer says I can't/shouldn't" is a cop-out IMHO because the actual risk of losing a court case against a derivative fanfic writer is ludicrously small.
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@faraday said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
@roz said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
I imagine there are plenty of lawyers who are like "you should say no just so we can all avoid the potential for a possible headache down the line."
Right. "I don't feel like dealing with any potential headaches, however unlikely" is a completely reasonable position to take. "I really don't mind but my lawyer says I can't/shouldn't" is a cop-out IMHO because the actual risk of losing a court case against a derivative fanfic writer is ludicrously small.
Pretty much. However, two Star Wars notes.....
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In the original Marvel Comics series, prior to the release of Empire, Marvel wanted to do a story involving a second Death Star, but Lucasfilm nixed it.
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There's a 'claim' making the fan fiction rounds that 'The Last Jedi' cribbed a lot of plot-points from a Rey/Ben fanfic that was written after Force Awakens. And is apparently longer that the entire Harry Potter book series. Written entirely in under two years.
Yeah, I detect the faint aroma of fertilizer on that second point, but, here we are anyways....
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@faraday said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
Right. "I don't feel like dealing with any potential headaches, however unlikely" is a completely reasonable position to take. "I really don't mind but my lawyer says I can't/shouldn't" is a cop-out IMHO because the actual risk of losing a court case against a derivative fanfic writer is ludicrously small.
I mean, it's not like writers aren't human and will conflate or mis-state a situation to reflect their ideology or emotions on the matter, and find the whole he-said/she-said liar talk pretty jackass.
I personally don't see a conflict between "it would be a headache" and "my lawyer told me to", and find the last roughly fifteen posts a good thirty seconds of my life that I won't get back.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos -
@lithium said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
The only C&D letter I recall actually being a thing in MU*'dom was either from Kevin Siembieda cuz he's a fiend about his system not being automated and people not needing the books, and Steve Jackson, cuz, Steve Jackson.
Those were a long time ago though when MU'ing was /much/ bigger.
Shadows of Isildur, which was a large Lord of the Rings MU*, was hit with a C&D letter from Saul Zaentz Company around 2004 (?) and had to shut down for a month or so while the owner negotiated with the company. By my memory, the main issue was that the game's site might have made some money from Google ads.
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@thenomain said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
I personally don't see a conflict between "it would be a headache" and "my lawyer told me to", and find the last roughly fifteen posts a good thirty seconds of my life that I won't get back.
It's the "I would really like to, but..." part I find disingenuous. And the "I really can't because it would jeopardize my copyright..." bit leads to the pervasive public misinformation that you have to actively defend copyright or else you lose it. If you don't see a distinction, fine, but there's no need to be derogatory about it.
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@ixokai said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
This isn't entirely clear cut because this is America and anyone can sue anyone for anything, and so I can completely understand why an author might want to come out against fan fiction (or mushes) out of not wanting to deal with court headaches. But to say that this is necessary to protect their rights is what I object to.
This is, in fact, exactly what happened to Mercedes Lackey. I don't know if she gave permission to use her world or just didn't say no but she was sued by a fanfic writer who claimed that Lackey stole ideas from her. Now she expressly forbids any fanfic or Mu* based on her work.
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@tnp said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
@ixokai said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
This isn't entirely clear cut because this is America and anyone can sue anyone for anything, and so I can completely understand why an author might want to come out against fan fiction (or mushes) out of not wanting to deal with court headaches. But to say that this is necessary to protect their rights is what I object to.
This is, in fact, exactly what happened to Mercedes Lackey. I don't know if she gave permission to use her world or just didn't say no but she was sued by a fanfic writer who claimed that Lackey stole ideas from her. Now she expressly forbids any fanfic or Mu* based on her work.
You say, "in fact", yet in fact is more nuanced. You can not sue someone for copyright infringement for ideas. Flat, stop. You can't. You can, with a much harder burden of proof, sue someone for plagiarism That's a more complicated case that has nothing at all to do with copyright..
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@ixokai said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
You say, "in fact", yet in fact is more nuanced. You can not sue someone for copyright infringement for ideas. Flat, stop. You can't. You can, with a much harder burden of proof, sue someone for plagiarism That's a more complicated case that has nothing at all to do with copyright..
Worth reading on this account: MZB vs Fanction.
Lawyers were involved, hassle was ensued, and yet, notably, there was no actual lawsuit at all - let alone a case where a fanfiction writer actually won a copyright case against an established author. Even more importantly, the situation could have resulted whether the author had a prohibition against fanfic or not. Because, as @ixokai said, this is America and anybody can try to sue anybody about anything. Whether it will actually hold up or not - that's the question.
Also worth noting that even the claims that the publisher refused to publish the author's novel due to the overlap is in question:
“one of the fans [Lamb] wrote a story, using my world and my characters, that overlapped the setting I was using for my next Darkover novel. Since she had sent me a copy of her fanzine, and I had read it, my publisher will not publish my novel set during that time period, and I am now out several years’ work, as well as the cost of inconvenience of having a lawyer deal with this matter.” [1. I’ve heard claims that DAW killed the project. I’ve also spoken to Betsy Wolheim at DAW, who states that this was Bradley’s decision, not DAW’s.]
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@bobotron said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
GRRM is also well-known to hate 'fan fiction' and find it distasteful, hes' talked about it in interviews and junk. I don't think I've ever heard of an IP holder ACTUALLY sending a C&D letter to a MU*; I feel like it's a holdover from the old days of Lion King MUCKs and the nebulous fear of Disney suing them.
I was once on a Narnia place something like 20 years or so back and it ended up getting a C&D from someone who was part of the Lewis Estate, IIRC. It was a shame.
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@faraday said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
@ixokai said in A Game of Thrones MUX Discussion:
You say, "in fact", yet in fact is more nuanced. You can not sue someone for copyright infringement for ideas. Flat, stop. You can't. You can, with a much harder burden of proof, sue someone for plagiarism That's a more complicated case that has nothing at all to do with copyright..
Worth reading on this account: MZB vs Fanction.
Lawyers were involved, hassle was ensued, and yet, notably, there was no actual lawsuit at all - let alone a case where a fanfiction writer actually won a copyright case against an established author. Even more importantly, the situation could have resulted whether the author had a prohibition against fanfic or not. Because, as @ixokai said, this is America and anybody can try to sue anybody about anything. Whether it will actually hold up or not - that's the question.
Also worth noting that even the claims that the publisher refused to publish the author's novel due to the overlap is in question:
“one of the fans [Lamb] wrote a story, using my world and my characters, that overlapped the setting I was using for my next Darkover novel. Since she had sent me a copy of her fanzine, and I had read it, my publisher will not publish my novel set during that time period, and I am now out several years’ work, as well as the cost of inconvenience of having a lawyer deal with this matter.” [1. I’ve heard claims that DAW killed the project. I’ve also spoken to Betsy Wolheim at DAW, who states that this was Bradley’s decision, not DAW’s.]
Ah, that's right. I was confusing my authors. It was MZB who had the major issues with that. It was Lackey who banned any use of her world based, in part, on the MZB episode (they had the same agent).
A timeline of Lackey's history is here.
Though I see, having looked it up for more specifics, she's since lifted the ban on fanfiction as her agent relented and it's now allowable under the Creative Commons license. Though, wisely, she still won't read it.
