Let's talk about TS.

[Arkandel]

So let's get back to the topic at hand! I feel we strayed a little bit.

The general consensus seems to be that coded/formal communication about TS wouldn't work, which means it's not something that can be systematized.

Can you guys bring up a way you have interacted - OOC - in the past with someone you didn't already know well enough beforehand in order to discuss limits, preferences, FTB-or-not, etc? When was the best time for it? What worked versus other stuff that didn't?

In other words, let's focus on what to do (and how, if possible) rather than what not to do, which has been probably (and sadly) covered extensively in other threads.

[Hella]

There's always the dreaded 'so, how much are you enjoying this?' OOC question that might as well be 'I want to know if you're jerking off right now OOC'.

I don't know if you can bring it up OOC without things getting weird.

[Tinuviel]

@arkandel said in Let's talk about TS.:

have interacted - OOC - in the past with someone you didn't already know well enough[...]

Sure can!
The best time for it was when our characters were beginning with flirtatious and florid language. You state, clearly and directly, what your intentions and desires are as it relates to both the present scene and any future engagements of similar kind.

IF your RP partner(s) is/are not open to such dialogue, fade to black until they are. All participants absolutely have to be comfortable enough to discuss these things for any hope of mature conduct relating to adult content.

ETA: This isn't one particular occasion, this is all occasions. I am, however, incredibly picky about my long-term RP partners. If they don't have my back, in the improv/performing sense, then things don't tend to flow well enough for me to enjoy it.

[Arkandel]

@vulgarkitten said in Let's talk about TS.:

There's always the dreaded 'so, how much are you enjoying this?' OOC question that might as well be 'I want to know if you're jerking off right now OOC'.

I don't know if you can bring it up OOC without things getting weird.

Yes, thanks for bringing that up.

In the past that has been a valid question I meant to ask, and when I didn't it was largely due to this. It sounds creepy if it's phrased even remotely wrong, but it's so close to a very legitimate question as well.

[Thenomain]

@arkandel said in Let's talk about TS.:

@surreality said in Let's talk about TS.:

Think about this realistically for a moment and you'll likely begin to see the real scope of the problem: "I am feeling gross and pressured, I went to staff to ask for help, and instead of helping, they called me a bad player and enabled the creeper who has no respect for my player-side limits."

Oh that's true. But as you already pointed out, if you can't trust staff on a game you are screwed either way.

What I'd like to try and do is, assuming we're neither dealing with assholes or bad staff, to try and figure out how to systematize these things. I'll even risk @Thenomain's snicker and ask, naively, whether this is a social problem we can solve through code.

The sentiment, Theno's Law, is that you must be very careful when trying to solve social issues through code. Not that it can't be done, but that it often doesn't do what the designer thinks it's going to do.

I would start by taking a step back from the code itself and codifying the rules of behavior. At the core of Google's success is knowing about networks of trust, and then finding a way to quantify that trust.

...swipe left...

A double-blind system is always good; you only know if someone OKs you for Sexyfuntimes(tm) if they have OK'd you. But this becomes a very small subset of the RP Preferences ideas that have been floating around since...Shang? FurryMUCK?

It's not a bad idea, though I can't imagine anyone I know using it. Throughout my career online, you generally get to a point and page: Do you want to play this out? If they say 'no', then it's FTB time. That's about it. I don't need dating algorithms once I get to my character and someone else's character getting their mack on.

[Tinuviel]

There also needs to be clearly articulated "you can talk to us (staff) if people violate your OOC consent" statements. People need to feel that their complaints will be taken seriously and privately if you ever want to have a hope of eliminating predatory behaviour in this arena.

[Arkandel]

@thenomain said in Let's talk about TS.:

A double-blind system is always good; you only know if someone OKs you for Sexyfuntimes(tm) if they have OK'd you. But this becomes a very small subset of the RP Preferences ideas that have been floating around since...Shang? FurryMUCK?

Oh I know, but what I was hoping was to avoid the icky factor of airing your preferences for all to see. That works on Shang since that's why people go over, but on a game with a different focus it sounded out of place, so I wanted something subtler and less in-your-face.

In retrospect I'm not surprised people on this thread found it icky anyway, although I don't know everyone gave it a fair chance. Maybe it was never going to work to begin with though seeing that it gained no friction with the exact kind of players I hoped would have gone "oh, that's neat".

[Thenomain]

@tinuviel said in Let's talk about TS.:

There also needs to be clearly articulated "you can talk to us (staff) if people violate your OOC consent" statements.

This should be true for everything on the game. Staff is the only group with the organization and authority to provide order.

And this order has to have bite; if staff and players are not held accountable--or are at least trusted enough to hold themselves accountable, which is the only situation that works--I don't care what you tell people is Okay or Not Okay. People will do whatever they see staff doing or allowing, every single time.

Game culture comes from the top.

I know we're talking about Safe TSing, but the sentiment of going to staff in case of problems goes so far past that.

[Tinuviel]

@thenomain You're absolutely right, of course. Though I feel that, given recent discussions on a few predatory people, TS and adult content of this nature are especially fraught with not only "well staff won't do anything" pitfalls that every other policy has, but with "They won't believe me" or "it's my own fault" or even the dreaded "I'm probably making a big deal out of nothing."

Sort of like real cases of 'sexual misconduct' and the reporting thereof.

[Thenomain]

(was going to add to previous post, but Tin posted in the middle)

@arkandel said in Let's talk about TS.:

Oh I know, but what I was hoping was to avoid the icky factor of airing your preferences for all to see. That works on Shang since that's why people go over, but on a game with a different focus it sounded out of place, so I wanted something subtler and less in-your-face.

You mean like RPing to find out what happens?

I don't know if you and @Tinuviel are talking about the same situations, but it sounds like you're looking for a matchmaker system as a way to protect people's interests. Neh. I don't see the problem that it's trying to solve.

If you are talking about the same things, then using a matchmaker system to protect against predatory actions won't work; predators will find a way. This is why they are predators.

Tin and I are in complete agreement: Staff needs to be active against bad actors. I'm not saying games need to be "safe spaces" because we won't agree what that means, but emotional abuse is a default no-go.

Games need to think about their punishment list for bad actors, and not just do whatever's on their mind that day, which is I believe at the core of distrust players have for staff.

[Tinuviel]

@thenomain said in Let's talk about TS.:

sounds like you're looking for a matchmaker system

Good lord no.

I'm totally against any 'system' that takes away the human connection. Systems should arbitrate or mediate, not decide.

[surreality]

@kanye-qwest It kinda depends on how someone goes about it.

I wouldn't, for instance, advocate something with the kind of detail that is in Shang's +kinks setup for any game that isn't focused on that content.

A general 'here's a spot for player+character prefs for this' that would let someone write something like these examples, though, is more useful and doesn't quite go there into 'OMG WAY TOO MUCH TMI!':

• My character really wants to become a mother, and is looking for a baby daddy. I'm not really interested in pregnancy RP, though, so on the player level I'm not pursuing the same goal as the character and expect to have her attempts fail.

• I'm OK with most adult content, and can't really be offended by language. If you have any sensitivities about it, let me know and I will happily avoid those subjects and stick to the language you prefer.

• I'm really not into TS. While I'm not opposed to romantic RP, when it comes time to get into the nitty gritty, I will always fade to black without exception.

• My character is a super flirt, and that may make it seem like she's always thirsty for your character's nethers. This is nothing but an act because she's really insecure and immature about this kind of thing, and will freak out and run if anybody actually ever takes her up on it.

• My character is pretty kinky, and is into a lot of controversial things, but most of this happens offscreen in downtime. I'm OK with RPing these things with other players in small doses, but it's not something I want to dedicate much of my game time to when I have time to play.

[Tinuviel]

@surreality These are all things that... I dunno. They're like hooks, but they seem somewhat more like things I'd want to find out IC - if at all. Perhaps I'm overthinking it, though.

[Thenomain]

@tinuviel said in Let's talk about TS.:

I'm totally against any 'system' that takes away the human connection. Systems should arbitrate or mediate, not decide.

That was to Ark. And matchmaker systems do arbitrate.

[surreality]

@tinuviel They're definitely a lot like hooks, just focused on a specific subject area. (There was a long list of them.) They also cross over a bit into player preferences and goals, though, in a way hooks typically don't.

They include story ideas, but are focused more on being an explainer/place for limits and goals a bit more than I typically see in hooks, which tend to be more like:

• Joe is a motorcycle enthusiast. Does your character ride, too?
• Jane is a jeweler. Need something custom? Hit her up!

...etc.

[Tinuviel]

@thenomain said in Let's talk about TS.:

matchmaker systems do arbitrate

I'm apparently having trouble articulating my thoughts correctly.

What I think I mean is that matchmaker-type-situations are those that I'd much rather see totally handled by roleplay and player-to-player contact, rather than have a list of people a bit of code says I'm compatible with. Obviously YMMV.

@surreality said in Let's talk about TS.:

focused more on being an explainer/place for limits and goals

Yeah, I think that's where my qualm is coming from. Naturally, I'm not the same as anyone else, but my character's goal(s) are things I keep very much to myself.

[surreality]

@tinuviel The concept behind it all was more or less as a tool for people to find the RP they're looking for, and help avoid things that are going to cause major expectation mismatches (and usually drama).

All of them are set up to be optional save for things we're used to from various +finger stuff already: general preferences (things like pose length and speed and style), availability (timezone if someone wants to share that, general 'office hours' notes, typical times available to help people schedule things to be inclusive as needed), and GM/ST preferences (if someone is interested in running scenes for others -- like, 'I like to run small teaching scenes' or 'I like to host party events' or 'I enjoy running spirit interactions', and so on).

[Tinuviel]

@surreality Sure, the idea is sound. The example execution leaves me iffy, is all.

[Cobalt]

@kanye-qwest said in Let's talk about TS.:

I find myself a little put off by sexual interests and such in ooc formats. It feels..weirdly player intimate, to me. When I do TS, to be frank, it's not really about gratification for ME. It's about the characters. I'm fine with a quick "this is the level of language I'm comfortable with, this is a hard FTB point/event for me", etc, but like a browsable list of wants and less-wants is decidedly not my jam.

Yeah, I just provide code. It's not my jam for non-sex games (ala Shang or an Anitaverse or Kushiel game where staff are 100% upfront it's meant to be a sex-game with some world cohesion).

The code can be easily modified, but it's intended purpose was to let people match up with other people that like similar styles/focuses. Like some people really love adventure RP and hate casual/bar-RP. Some people are absolutely fine with casual/bar-RP but feel stressed out by high stakes adventure RP.

[ThatGuyThere]

Mildly off topic but every time I open up this thread I hear Salt and Peppa in my head, then I realize how old that song is and by extension how old I am.