A new platform?
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My 16 year old son RPs on discord, but I think it's mostly sandboxing with his friends.
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I'm still trying to read through the other "Alternative Formats for MU" ~400-post thread, but keeping up with this one and getting work done is hard. So rather than try to address all of the points I'd want to, I'll just leave a screenshot for what I'm working on which is hopefully less of an eyesore than that ...ninja....thing.
https://pasteboard.co/Hs1ni69.png
now imagine that with the google voice-to-text api button off the side of the command input area and an extra row of assignable buttons above the text area.
A picture in this case seems worth a thousand words.
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@friarzen said in A new platform?:
Absolutely not as scary as the ninja thing at all, confirmed. Also likely much less of a shock when the text window then appears, which is also helpful.
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@puppybreath said in A new platform?:
My 16 year old son RPs on discord, but I think it's mostly sandboxing with his friends.
While this is the norm to my understanding, there is nothing to say that a discord/slack 'server/room/whateverthey call invite only locations things' can't be persistent with some form of staff oversight. I'm certain a number of individuals do use it as a OTT or VTT (your pref for correct term, but online or virtual table top) and the GM keeps it persistent.
In my view, its really no different than the persistence implied on a Mu* - which is up to staff and/or logs to enforce, not the vehicle itself.
And come on about the ninja thing. I get it, lightning and raiden and all can induce epilepsy or something but, remove the graphics and junk and its the same windows @friarzen is showing us (text window, chat window, ascii map window), it has some extra info on the sides that could be removed (pc and npc, but those are bits for MUDs with heavy combat focus, look at it outside the box). The point was there is already web client potential out there. I think that is MUDlet, a number of MUDs already use it. I think BATMud has the best interface, but can't find a good screenshot of that joint to show it.
I'm just a surge protector doing my job, sir.
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@lotherio said in A new platform?:
While this is the norm to my understanding, there is nothing to say that a discord/slack 'server/room/whateverthey call invite only locations things' can't be persistent with some form of staff oversight. I'm certain a number of individuals do use it as a OTT or VTT (your pref for correct term, but online or virtual table top) and the GM keeps it persistent.
Oh there's nothing wrong about it if you are running a statless system. Otherwise you'll be missing out on automated tools for either displaying information (persistent +sheets, for example) or inputing it (say, XP spends). You'd also need tickets of some sort to get in touch with multiple people and/or staff, CGen...
But sure, for statless I don't see why you can't just run everything over Discord. Slack would be even better but there's no free version out. I'm not sure if you can 'describe' rooms (which would be separate channels, I guess?) in a permanent fashion though, so if someone joins the bar-channel they have some idea what it looks like.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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I really don't think the platform is the problem, here. And I think it's less a problem based on code than it is a problem rooted in some of the basic ideas of linguistics, since someone was talking about this above. Bear with me here.
As someone (I forget who you are now, sorry, and I don't wanna dig, but total kudos to you) said: with any system, you're going to have to learn how to talk to the system. You're going to have to learn how it identifies objects, how it identifies verbs, how to give it new definitions for things, etc.
And that's what we're running into here. Graphical things take some of that and make it unncessary, but also cost some things when it comes to robustness. Graphical systems are the equivalent of me just pointing at a thing and hoping you understand, versus me telling you what it is I want you to do with it, what it is, how to do it, etc.
This hobby isn't about shiny things. It's about communication. It's about learning forms of exchanging information and interacting with a non-physical environment in a medium in which you only have a voice. Graphical systems are generally the functional equivalent of beating on things and grunting, as far as input-output exchange goes. Very basic and simple, even if they are pretty flashy.
More robust GUI's give you something like... photoshop. And everyone bitches what a nightmare that is to learn, too, so I really don't think that the problems that we're experiencing with the hobby are going to be solved by moving to shinier, more graphical interfaces, because these two things aren't the same and cannot emulate one another effectively.
If we want to simplify the system, we can talk about various ways to redefine the code we use, but it's still going to be the effective equivalent of learning a language. Right now we're using one way, but there are other ways that information can be exchanged, as multilingual people can tell you. Maybe a system of flags that act as something like particles in japanese, or something like how Bash does it, but either way the system is still going to be complex because of the sheer amount of information you're going to have to learn to convey across the system in a brand new way.
I think that just changing clients without addressing what I feel is the real root of the problem is going to be problematic. As much as studies say that people's literacy is going down, but they're reading less, people consume more information on a daily basis now than they did decades ago thanks to the tools we have. It doesn't matter if they aren't reading a book a month if they're reading a hundred web articles a day. The capacity for learning new things is higher than ever.
So let's try and find a way of communicating that streamlines things in a way that people find intuitive, rather than trying to reduce the robustness of what's possible to use. That's what Call of Duty is for.
Racism isn't Tinkerbell. It doesn't need you to believe in it for it to exist.
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@arkandel Even with statless I'd hope there is more maintenance than just the chat services of discord/slack. I imagine, and I don't play on them, just devil advocacy program here, but something like:
The GM goes to RPG Directory or whatever to recruit their players: Hey I'm running x game on discord who's in, send me your sheets, we'll run regularly on x, y, and z day, otherwise you can socially RP between times all you like.
And done.
That's simplified certainly, but it can be done and I'm certain it is being done on larger scale than a TT group (4-8 players only); might take some searching but I'm sure its out there.
Secondary, if I tried that I wouldn't miss +sheets and XP spends if I tried that (if I'm really wanting to text game, I'd go play a mud honestly, I'm not and don't much, but just saying). I'd miss things like descriptions, room descriptions, locations, environment and such.
Meh, got me wondering if I should go slack or discord and try the RP with friends thing. All Mu' these days seem to want bigger focus on gaming only. I've played plenty of statetless Mu's that I have enjoyed, but they're the first to go it seems.
I'm just a surge protector doing my job, sir.
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@lotherio
I mean sure you should if you want to do that. There are an endless amount of simple and low maintenance ways to just set up a game between friends, and I'll confess I'm frequently mystified that the players who complain about MUs or available settings, but really do just want to play with their friends, don't use Discord or whatever to do their own thing. When I personally talk about the potential of MUing it's in the context of games that have more persistent world support and more ability to centralize stuff like character stats and systems. I think there's a TON of statless, sandbox style rp out there that this community doesn't interact with and would be well-served to investigate. It just doesn't do what a MU does. -
@three-eyed-crow said in A new platform?:
When I personally talk about the potential of MUing it's in the context of games that have more persistent world support and more ability to centralize stuff like character stats and systems.
I look for persistent world support that keeps stories connected and I enjoy RP'ing with new people as it introduces random elements into the writing. My Mu'ing experiences have been entirely different than the majority it seems.
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@derp said in A new platform?:
This hobby isn't about shiny things. It's about communication.
And if you look at Slack, or Discord, or Facebook Messenger, or this very forum we're talking on, or literally any other modern tool centered around communication you'll see that it's a graphical shell around, yes, text. Nobody is saying we're going to take away the need to read and write in a writing game. That would be silly. But we can absolutely (and IMHO must) change the fundamental tools that we use to do that reading and writing.
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@faraday
My concern is that 90 percent of those graphical shells make the reading and writing of the text more of a pain than a simple command line. I am all for new players but not if the trade off for getting them is making my experience worse. -
@thatguythere said in A new platform?:
My concern is that 90 percent of those graphical shells make the reading and writing of the text more of a pain than a simple command line. I am all for new players but not if the trade off for getting them is making my experience worse.
Wait - are you trying to say that Discord or Slack with its different channels and PMs separated visually is worse of an interface than a MUSH window with everything all smushed together with a single typing window? If so then I must respectfully disagree.
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@faraday said in A new platform?:
@thatguythere said in A new platform?:
My concern is that 90 percent of those graphical shells make the reading and writing of the text more of a pain than a simple command line. I am all for new players but not if the trade off for getting them is making my experience worse.
Wait - are you trying to say that Discord or Slack with its different channels and PMs separated visually is worse of an interface than a MUSH window with everything all smushed together with a single typing window? If so then I must respectfully disagree.
Yes I am I want everything together, and if I want to separate there are clients that let me decide how I want to separate. I would much rather have every thing in one place or with me having the ability to choose what goes where than to have it preset because the presets, if most of software I have ever used is a guide, not match what I would want out of them so finding anything because an un-fun game of where did they decide x should be.
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@faraday I could be wrong, but @ThatGuyThere might be saying PM notifications, pop-ups, and other flashes or distractions that draw attention from the text window may be too much of a distraction. I don't think he's implying a new system/platform will, but it has that potential and he's content with his current experience.
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@lotherio said in A new platform?:
@faraday I could be wrong, but @ThatGuyThere might be saying PM notifications, pop-ups, and other flashes or distractions that draw attention from the text window may be too much of a distraction. I don't think he's implying a new system/platform will, but it has that potential and he's content with his current experience.
You are wrong and not wrong I don't like notifications and other pop ups but I have trained myself to ignore them already. What I am saying is I like the command line client set up because it gives me control of my own presentation something that gets lost as more bells and whistles get added mostly with the reasoning that the bells and whistles will attract more people.
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@thatguythere To each their own, but that logic flies in the face of every principle of modern user interface design. Discord wouldn't get very far if it smushed every chatroom into one screen like:
<Public> Faraday waves, "Hi!" <Sports> Seraphim says, "So how about that game last night?"MUSHers only tolerate it because that's what we're used to.
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@faraday
I fail to see how those being split into two different windows would be better? All that does is make me flip between windows to see things. -
@thatguythere I think the overwhelming popularity of programs like Slack and Discord kind of indicate that people generally like having channels be their own pages. At least it's not something I've ever seen someone complain about.
Also, I'm on a Discord with several hundred people as well as a Slack that has almost a thousand people in it. Having channels be their own page makes catching up on conversations far, far easier. I'd probably shoot myself if I had to go through all the slack messages to see which ones I was actually interested in. So much easier to just click on the channel and catch up on what I missed.
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@thatguythere said in A new platform?:
@faraday
I fail to see how those being split into two different windows would be better? All that does is make me flip between windows to see things.Then there's nothing I can say to convince you. Continue enjoying the old systems.
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I realize some Mushers don't use spawn windows but I struggle to imagine functioning without them, and shifting channels to other tabs/rooms ala discord and slack just feels like that, only less work on my end.
