Plot session duration
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After watching a PrP a few days ago take a bit over six hours to complete I wanted to see what you all thought about plot duration, and specifically cover the following issues:
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What duration - as measured in hours - is ideal, acceptable, tolerable and (if there's such a thing) 'too much'?
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How easy is it for a PrP runner to predict how long a scene is likely to run in the first place? What are some good ways to make rough estimates?
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Should a projected duration be advertised as part of plots?
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What's the proper way to break longer scenes down? For example if IC it's a single uninterrupted adventure that gets broken down into two parts for OOC convenience how do you best handle concurrent on-grid RP taking place between those PrP sessions?
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How do you handle players having to go in mid-scene due to RL; are they fading to black? Do you force them to use an IC excuse ("Arkandel has left the fight to uh, guard the party's flanks!")? Assume the person is there all along doing generic things? Should there be IC consequences for having to drop out of a PrP? ("Arkandel left the session with the Prince early, which offended the monarch!")
Thoughts?
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When I run big scenes (6-20 players, biggest I've done in the past year was 27 people), I tend to take a few minutes at the start of the scene to lay down some ground rules that help keep things flowing along:
For example, a simple 3 or 2 pose rule if there is no action can help keep things moving.
If you are in initiative order, you let people know that they will have a few minutes to declare their actions before they are passed and have to act in a later initiative order when they return.
The above also applies to for example, if you need to AFK. Just let everyone know you have to AFK, even without a timeframe so you can be skipped.
If someone has to go mid-scene, I will usually ask them if they want to do/accomplish anything and let them prepare a final pose, or action and if not work out something with them quickly; even if it is just them fading out amidst the din of the battlefield chaos.
I also usually tend to call breaks or set a time limit for the scene, and what the overall goal is. So if the group is trying to stop the charge of an advancing army by flanking them, I tend to like to run around 3 hours or so at the most. So I will plan the scene, and the action around this accordingly.
P.S. One bit of advice that most people will overlook, and not apply is the fact that a PrP/Scene/Event/Plot does not need to begin in the setup phases. You can start players right in the action and skip 1-3 hours of 'setup' RP where everyone is getting to the scene, or preparing etc.
Edit: I find if a plot is going to take more than the 2-3 hour mark, you need to allow an intermission, not just for players, but for you as a GM. I.E. 15-30 minutes if it's running for 6 hours as an intermission to eat, stretch, drink, etc. vs the smaller breaks that can be taken between poses or actions etc.
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@valkyrie said in Plot session duration:
For example, a simple 3 or 2 pose rule if there is no action can help keep things moving.
Yeah, that's a good idea. I use 1PR in my own plots; if someone else has posed since your last one, you're good to go. There should be no bottlenecks if it can be helped.
I tend to like to run around 3 hours or so at the most. So I will plan the scene, and the action around this accordingly.
That's around where my limit is, both as a runner and a participant. I could do more but... well, I don't want to. However I'm not sure yet that's a personal preference or something somewhat universal.
P.S. One bit of advice that most people will overlook, and not apply is the fact that a PrP/Scene/Event/Plot does not need to begin in the setup phases. You can start players right in the action and skip 1-3 hours of 'setup' RP where everyone is getting to the scene, or preparing etc.
I think though if you do that, it needs to be announced since it's not everyone's cup of tea. For example even with my combat monsters I wouldn't join a scene that starts with an +init roll and ends when then last orc is killed. It sounds really boring - to me.
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My ideal plot scene time is 2 hours; max 3 hours. If I'm GMing and it goes longer than that, I apologize and consider it a failure. People get bored and tune out at around the 2.5 hour mark in my experience.
What @Valkyrie said about pose ground rules is important. I think it's the GM's job to herd people along if they're taking a long time to pose, and skip them if necessary. Don't let one player derail the plot for everyone.
@arkandel said in Plot session duration:
How easy is it for a PrP runner to predict how long a scene is likely to run in the first place?
So I take the opposite approach and make them take a certain duration rather than trying to predict how long they're going to take.
If the players are going too slow despite my efforts to speed them along, I might gloss over or change some of the things I had planned. In a combat scene, for instance, I might tune down the difficulty on the remaining NPCs so they get taken out quickly, or cancel a wave of reinforcements I had planned. If it's a meeting with the Commander, they might get called away suddenly with a "We'll have to pick this up next time..." Worst case, we can FTB and handwave the end.
OOC Time > Plot, in other words. In this regard it's not unlike a convention game that has a fixed timeslot.
@arkandel said in Plot session duration:
if IC it's a single uninterrupted adventure that gets broken down into two parts for OOC convenience how do you best handle concurrent on-grid RP taking place between those PrP sessions?
I do everything possible to avoid this situation because It sucks. The OOC convenience of breaking it down rarely outweighs the OOC inconvenience of being scene-locked or having to dance around continuity issues with scenes taking place out-of-time.
@arkandel said in Plot session duration:
How do you handle players having to go in mid-scene due to RL
Try to pose them out ICly if possible - they got called away, stepped out to take an important phone call, went to the bathroom, got knocked unconscious, their fighter started having sudden engine trouble, whatever.
Otherwise they become puppetted in the background.
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@valkyrie said in Plot session duration:
P.S. One bit of advice that most people will overlook, and not apply is the fact that a PrP/Scene/Event/Plot does not need to begin in the setup phases. You can start players right in the action and skip 1-3 hours of 'setup' RP where everyone is getting to the scene, or preparing etc.
I agree with @Arkandel, if you are doing this let folks know. If it is part of a pre-existing plot where RP along the story has happened it is no big deal if you go directly to the combat, but if it is a show up beat up monster kind of one shot then skipping the getting to the fight RP pretty much turns it into a video game with not visuals to me. I know most won't agree with me but I would much rather have the preamble RP in the scene and the fight part quickly summed up or cut than vice versa simply because the fights tend to be anti-climactic since in most one shot PRPs there are no stakes.
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@thatguythere said in Plot session duration:
I know most won't agree with me but I would much rather have the preamble RP in the scene and the fight part quickly summed up or cut than vice versa
I think it comes down to your audience and the type of plot. If it's "Sunday 9pm - Big Battle" then people are kinda coming assuming a fight and skipping the setup would make sense. If it's "Sunday 9pm - Plan the Big Battle" that's different. PCs take freaking forever though to make plans and get organized (and many players aren't into that at all), so I would never try to do both in the same session - that strikes me as a recipe for an all-day event with some very bored players.
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I've been in scenes that have taken a half an hour, and occasionally more, to set the "pre-scene powers, rolls, and equipment". WoD, you saucy bastard.
2-3 hours per scene is a good solid number. I normally see the scene start to fall apart by then.
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I started answering the questions in the OP then I realized: I'm answering these no differently than I would for people asking how to run a module for a tabletop group. The answer is that there is no single answer, that you read the group and adjust based on that. Knowing how to do this requires experience, and gaining experience requires participation. I don't think a survey is going to cover all the differences in play that we have.
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- What duration - as measured in hours - is ideal, acceptable, tolerable and (if there's such a thing) 'too much'?
"Too much" is when the people involved say they're done. I'm going to stick to my 2-3 hour number for now.
- How easy is it for a PrP runner to predict how long a scene is likely to run in the first place? What are some good ways to make rough estimates?
Run plots. Pay attention to how they worked out. Keep running them.
Be in plots. Pay attention to how they're run. Keep paying attention.
- Should a projected duration be advertised as part of plots?
Duration in hours, or in number of scenes? Is this even possible? See Above.
- What's the proper way to break longer scenes down?
The way that's most natural for the scene and those involved, though I would argue "one scene" is always completely over when the scene itself is over. If it's going on too long, then learn from it and don't do that again.
- How do you handle players having to go in mid-scene due to RL
The same way you do any other scene: Either there is an out for them right there, or you work out the consequences later.
It would be completely dickish to force a negative consequence because they have a life. Remember Rule #1: RL Comes First. If there is a negative consequence, make it interesting or at the very least make it because they were on the losing side.
All IC situations come from OOC considerations, from the very plot to the decisions people make to stay in or get out of it.
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- This is tough. I think it's more about pose wait time than the length of the plot. Like, if one player consistently takes 10 minute to type one line on their turn in combat, that's too long, especially when they had 4 other players each taking 5-10 minutes to do their turn. I think this is what keeps me from going back to Shadowrun, I really liked that game, but jesus, driving from one side of town to the other would be a 3 session affair.
Anyways, in most systems, if things keep going at a happy clip, I'm pleased to put in about 4 hours before my back starts aching.
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I think if you're doing a combat in a non automated game, you can count on one hour per player. If you're throwing a plot twist at them, double it. FS3 throws these estimates out the window, because things go so smoothly, and you don't really have to wait on Slowey McBrokenfingers typing 1 wpm to keep things going.
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I think this would be a fantastic idea.
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I the majority of my experiences, paused scenes never really get finished with the same roster that started them. Lots of this is on me, and my regimented bedtimes to combat insomnia, but many people only have a day or two where they can set aside 4 hours for a plot. In a perfect world, a plot would be designed in a way that people could exit without it breaking the scenario, like don't have people in an escape room or something like that, have them driving/running/riding to the next scene in the plot, someone could get stuck in traffic or something.
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I usually do some sort of cognitive dissonance retcon. Where's dude? Nah, dude wasn't here the whole time, bad guy has wounds from ... a rough sparring session with his mooks, yeah, that's it!
Or, you know, they step on a waterslide pit trap and are gone all of a sudden. One time in a star wars mush, someone said they left their iron on or something and left a scene where we were shooting stormtroopers, I thought that was pretty funny.
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@sg said in Plot session duration:
- This is tough. I think it's more about pose wait time than the length of the plot. Like, if one player consistently takes 10 minute to type one line on their turn in combat, that's too long, especially when they had 4 other players each taking 5-10 minutes to do their turn.
I consider short pose rules (1 or 2 poses before someone can repose) to be absolutely essential when dealing with unknown participants. It's also one of the reasons I dislike running small scale PrPs with players I don't know - because if I have three players in my scene and two of them are super slow, I'm screwed. Unlike normal on-grid scenes it's more awkward for a ST to just go "uhm, sorry, this isn't working for me" then walk out.
So either I'd play with people I know and trust to be considerate or I impose limitations and adjust as needed.
Anyways, in most systems, if things keep going at a happy clip, I'm pleased to put in about 4 hours before my back starts aching.
Hello, fellow back sufferer! <sad high five>
- I think if you're doing a combat in a non automated game, you can count on one hour per player. If you're throwing a plot twist at them, double it. FS3 throws these estimates out the window, because things go so smoothly, and you don't really have to wait on Slowey McBrokenfingers typing 1 wpm to keep things going.
That's a factor I hadn't considered. People in automated combat games with experience playing in non-automated games as well, how big a factor has this been for you?
In a perfect world, a plot would be designed in a way that people could exit without it breaking the scenario, like don't have people in an escape room or something like that, have them driving/running/riding to the next scene in the plot, someone could get stuck in traffic or something.
One of the biggest issues I've had designing PrPs is portability - being able to tag in newcomers for Scene #2 - because up to a certain point I don't want to rely on my existing players to be proactive, both because it's uncommon for that to happen but also because such new players come to me, not them. I've given it a shot with delegation before but I think it's felt like I was passing the buck, or I wasn't interested in helping fresh faces get in ("yeeeah, just talk to Bob, maybe he can figure out a way to bring you in or somethin'"), so I typically try to hook them in myself.
Or, you know, they step on a waterslide pit trap and are gone all of a sudden. One time in a star wars mush, someone said they left their iron on or something and left a scene where we were shooting stormtroopers, I thought that was pretty funny.
I think the key here is to never place characters in IC disadvantage because their players' RL made it so they had to go due to RL. No other factors are as important; I don't care if the group is facing dire odds, half of them are unconscious bleeding out with the fate of the universe rests in their hands, if one of them needs to go to sleep because they have work the next day, they get to vanish gracefully into the aether.
Now if that happens in a deceptive way and I see that person hanging out on OOC channels or a different scene for another hour after getting out of danger then I'd have a chat with the as well as staff. But that's yet to happen.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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A lot of the stuff being said here is why I am leaning towards, if I ever open up / run / whatever something, it will probably be tabletop-ish.
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@arkandel said in Plot session duration:
That's a factor I hadn't considered. People in automated combat games with experience playing in non-automated games as well, how big a factor has this been for you?
It's really night and day for the plot runner. The few plots I did run on Battlestar went very smoothly, partly because the players were all systems go(I had amazing buy in from players that I really haven't seen elsewhere), and the system really supported you. But even on games like any of the star wars mushes I've played on, or shadowrun, you can't do a quarter of the things in the same amount of time, even if the players are all hyped and into it.
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I don't run much any more but when I did, I emailed all the signed up participants with any background/setup info AND the scene set so they could be ready when it began and have devised why they're there and how they're posing in, etc. That first round of entrances was often a stumbling block with people trying to rationalize how or why they'd gotten there.
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@arkandel said in Plot session duration:
- I think if you're doing a combat in a non automated game, you can count on one hour per player. If you're throwing a plot twist at them, double it. FS3 throws these estimates out the window, because things go so smoothly, and you don't really have to wait on Slowey McBrokenfingers typing 1 wpm to keep things going.
That's a factor I hadn't considered. People in automated combat games with experience playing in non-automated games as well, how big a factor has this been for you?
Drives. Me. Insane. I've gotten so used to fast, smooth combat with FS3 that I almost choked (someone else) when I remembered how long scenes take with Saga Edition, for instance.
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@betternow said in Plot session duration:
I don't run much any more but when I did, I emailed all the signed up participants with any background/setup info AND the scene set so they could be ready when it began and have devised why they're there and how they're posing in, etc. That first round of entrances was often a stumbling block with people trying to rationalize how or why they'd gotten there.
This.
I've never understood why players in a combat scene aren't expected to show up to a combat scene with prep stuff already prepped. Waiting until you get to the scene to decide what you're going to do just drags everybody down, especially when you usually have days of downtime BSing in the ooc lounge when that stuff could be taken care of.
My alternative is to handwave prep stuff. Honor system. If you say you have it, you have it. I'm not gonna nitpick over stuff your character has plenty of time to do. If you're somehow gonna cheat about it, not only do I not care, but I'm unlikely to be able to catch you anyway since I can't see your sheet. Roll it yourself, spend what you know you should spend. If you cheat, that's on you to be that petty.
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Lack of prep system. Being able to prove the rolls is very important so people can’t just say, “I got 100 successes.”
No it’s not rocket science, but it takes time and we are a hobby that enjoys reinventing the wheel.
I suppose rolling to the job would be fine, but to me that would be even more work on behalf of the scene runner.
I do know a lot of people who put their prep stuff on their character wiki in a sub page, so it’s not like people don’t, but it still takes time for the rest of it.
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@thenomain
I used my wiki subpage for long term spells. Super helpful. I recommend that for sure to help.But for the 100 successes, I honestly say 'so what?' If the 100 successes would somehow ruin the experience for others, then at the very start I can tell them so and dis-invite them from the scene. 'Sorry, your character is too powerful for the scene I'm running.' I might even allow them to knock that number down to something that won't take away from everyone else's experience and enjoyment and still play, assuming the number isn't so far fetched that they are obviously lying. But if it is actually possible for them to get there, like an extended roll with many modifiers, it doesn't really matter to me whether the 100 is legitimate or not, just that the scene is fun for everyone else involved.
And that position is based on the fact that if someone has 4 different powers and 23 merits that let them get 100 success for some roll, I'd rather just go with what a person says than spend 40 minutes of planned scene time going over each and every aspect that allows them to get there. If we can go over it before the scene, whether in person or in a job, that would be ideal. I'm always down for that. Most players don't though. But that's not what I want to have anyone else deal with when they show up for a scene.
At one point, I tried scheduling a separate scene for prep, but consistently people would not show up then try to do prep in the actual scene with various reasons and excuses. So I gave that up quickly.
But at the end of the day - Its just a game. It isn't that important. Play what you want to play. Just my own personal view.
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If you’re not going to engage in the game system, then why use the system at all? Why worry about it?
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On any plot I run, be it GM or PRP, I don't really want to run for more than 3 hours. What this means is that if I give people choices (which I always try to do), then they get to choose ONE.
Not ONE, and THEN THE OTHER TWO.
Just one.
Any more than one and I add 1-2 hours per choice, depending on what is there and how the players react to it and interact with it. Adding manual combat in doubles whatever that number is.
I PREFER 3 hours. Or 3 hours, then break, then 3 hours. This is not to say I even remotely abide by any of these guidelines myself on any sort of regular basis, but that's my personal preference.
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That's an extreme leap, man. Feels like you're trolling me.
Asking people to do prep beforehand is not disengaging the game system. Neither is trusting people (blindly as it may be) that they've done the prep correctly.
I'm the last person that would disengage from the game system. I'm one of those (probably few) who prefer the long, drawn our scenes with Saga Edition that @Seraphim73 mentioned to FS3. Because I enjoy the systems as much as I do the themes and the RP.
The entire purpose behind the practice is to be able to spend as much scene time as possible engaging in the game system and the game theme together in RP. It is to actually be doing things instead of just rolling numbers and listing stats for an hour and a half - things that aren't even RPed.
Time is a very finite resource, especially for scenes on a MU*. That was the whole point behind the topic. I'm not suggesting to ditch the game system. Priorities. That's all.
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I consider 3 hours the max, but schedule myself for 4. I consider it very important to respect players' time. If it looks like we will run over (I will usually know 1-2 hours before the end), I apologize and ask if they'd be okay with an extension and negotiate that time (or schedule the next). If that's not possible I do my best to tighten things up on my end.
Letting a group oocly meander aimlessly for hours so time runs out before getting to the meat of things isn't player-centric to me, its disrespectful of their time. Waiting around for 45 minutes for a straggler to show up is also highly disrespectful to the people bothering to be where they are supposed to. Not offering to move the scene along to make up for lost time if the other players consent to waiting for late comers is also disrespectful IMO.
I find the players will very much respond to scenerunner leadership. If you run a tight ship, they'll pay better attention (or the people who are extremely slow/inattentive won't sign up for your stuff anymore). If it's clear people are confused and not getting what you're trying to get across, they're often relieved if you ask that, and will often either get on track or surprise you in really fun ways if you make an effort to understand/respond to their interpretations rather than wait for them to grope around and take a long time to stumble into what you've planned for.
It's a partnership. When I run things for a group of people, strangers or friends, I want them to: a) feel that I respect and appreciate the time they're giving me, b) I am attentive to what they are trying to accomplish, c) I'm acting like a partner, not making them play "guess what the ST is thinking, d) they feel like I actually give a shit about their character/rp.
For me, I find that exceedingly hard to accomplish if I am not minding the time/able to revise plans on the fly to respect that/if I am overly attached to how I originally visualized things going so I am not responsive/am too frustrated to provide guidance to what they are doing.
