For starters I want to thank people for staying - more or less - constructive in an emotionally charged thread.
Full disclosure: it's not the kind of conversation I enjoy to read let alone participate in. It feels a lot like sifting through other people's laundry, going over how friendships fell apart and who's at fault. More than anything such threads are about events which are none of my business unless it somehow involves predatory behavior the kind of which is endemic to MU* - and if it is not I avoid them. People don't always like each other, sometimes they quite dislike one another.
The reason I got pulled into it is because in this case an MSB administrator was involved and there was a complaint. To be clear, it was not @surreality who sent it, but it meant I had to ask around to figure out what happened. I still don't think I have all the facts, both the kind I think are relevant and the ones I would very much like to continue classifying as none of my damn business.
Here is the thing: I am no one's judge. I didn't sign up to be one. I can be judgy - hell, this is still MSB and most of us are in some ways - but when it comes down to it how popular one is doesn't mean anything to me. MSB bandwagons come and go, the mood shifts fast and it feeds on popcorn and people's frustration. I don't, and will not, run this forum based on that.
I was part of a few chats since yesterday night when I came home to this thread. A phrase that's come up a few times was "... I've gotten messages from people who feel the same way...". Yes, that's how it works - no one who doesn't feel that way will message a person on the other side of an emotionally charged argument. The majority of folks don't even know what's happening (myself included up to 12 hours ago) nor care, other perhaps than to read through and judge everyone here on all sides. Fresh popcorn has always been our official smell, I'm afraid.
To the point: The relevant word I care about when it comes to administrators here is misconduct. That's it. We've been - quite intentionally - stripped of much authority in the content that's permitted on these forums. Punitive actions are rare and exercised in extreme cases, posts are similarly extremely rarely deleted, edited or censored.
The popularity - at any given time, since that shifts - of one of us here is not relevant. Some of you dislike me (fools!); that's fine. Adoration is not mandatory to participate in this community. If it gets to the point someone feels they can't coexist it's okay to not log on here, too.
So far I have asked around and did not find cause to believe misconduct took place. If you have something to say about that you can reach out, here or in PMs. That's not specific to Auspice, mind you; Ganymede and yes, myself are also up to scrutiny - and if you are wondering there's been a succession plan in place if it comes to it and the forum needs to change hands should I do something exceptionally wrong. None of us here are larger than the community's need, and if it comes to it it will fall back to its founder who can then decide what to do with it.
To summarize: I hope this does not sound like we're circling the wagons - it's not my intention. If it does, so be it. But if there are facts regarding an MSB administrator's actions - actions as administrators - then I very much want to know. If you don't like them, or their posts, then I probably don't, but you can reach out anyway.
Thank you.
@surreality said in I owe a lot of people some apologies.:
@thenomain It is not about that, though.
No bullshit: it wouldn't matter who that person is/was re: 'I should not have behaved as I have behaved', because I still did it.
I wanted to go back to this for a second because this is where it got really weird for me.
Why publicly involve like 9 people and "the rest of the board at large" in what amounts to a breakdown mass reveal of all this drama generated by this one person from behind the scenes? Like why do you dedicate so much time and spectacle to that information if this thread is all about apologizing for your own behavior?
If these were my shoes (and I am genuinely grateful in this case that they aren't, you really do seem to have to deal with a lot of bullshit Surr and I am sorry for that) I would have approached these people privately and allowed whatever weird crusade this thread suddenly became to become its own thing on its own momentum, if there really was any.
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@wizz Those are the people that were specifically owed apologies for the behavior.
The behavior was in the public eye; the apology and any lumps I take for fucking up that hard should be as well.
I was not going to contact these people privately to discuss the matter, because many of them quite rightly would not want to speak to me because of the things I have said and done over the past couple of years, regardless of the why behind it. The only appropriate course of action was to allow them to contact me about it if they were willing to talk to me, and that meant making a list, pretty much, along with as much of a 'this is how I fucked you over, and it was fucking wrong' as could be managed without revealing personal or falsely defamatory information about them that was not in public view.
Oh fucking well.
@surreality for the record: it's cool, I don't care, water under the bridge. I just wish you were able to wait out your initial vicious responses to things and keep it slightly more chill. For your own good!
Trust me, I never say the first thing that comes to mind at people. I have a vicious mean streak inside me and I have to work to keep it under control.
@kanye-qwest I think our mean streaks have clashed way more than they ever should have. I remember way back when, when we got along fine and just joked around about shit -- which was honestly fun. I really am sorry I let stupid nonsense fuck that up, my own stupid shit and whatever weird whisperings were afoot, and I do really mean that.
Oh fucking well.
I mean, I'm too isolated from all of this to really speak more about it, I guess. I just think I am uncomfortable with the immediate fallout and I personally feel like this was a pretty dramatic way to handle it, but that's...kinda a given with this crowd, haha.
This thread is yet another cautionary tale about the toxic superficiality that permeates most interactions in this hobby. There seems to be a real lack of nuance in how this is all dealt with.
I'm behind for a multitude of reasons. But I want to thank Surr for coming forward and tell her I personally don't blame her. While I continue to be hurt by a lot of the stuff that was spread about, I put the blame on the person doing the talking and spreading and not the people who did/do believe it, including you @surreality.
@wizz said in I owe a lot of people some apologies.:
If these were my shoes (and I am genuinely grateful in this case that they aren't, you really do seem to have to deal with a lot of bullshit Surr and I am sorry for that) I would have approached these people privately and allowed whatever weird crusade this thread suddenly became to become its own thing on its own momentum, if there really was any.
Or is it better to debase yourself publicly so those who are not directly involved are informed?
I don't think there's a right way to do this. Myself, I've been trying to be a better person and lean on those I consider close friends. It doesn't always work, as one particular person knows, but I also would rather try behind the scenes.
It's pretty obvious that Surreality didn't think this was good for her situation, and I can't fault her for it. Some of the fallout is to be expected, but finding that perfect middle ground is not trivial.
@arkandel I felt the same way recently, that in order to ask someone to leave I had to catch them breaking an actual rule.
Then I realized it's perfectly valid to do it because someone is a shitty person who bullies and hurts others, even if they don't do it right in front of me on my game. This hobby is toxic for a reason - we tolerate toxic behavior from toxic people out of a misguided sense of fairness. No one has a right to play on a game.
@botulism said in I owe a lot of people some apologies.:
@arkandel I felt the same way recently, that in order to ask someone to leave I had to catch them breaking an actual rule.
Then I realized it's perfectly valid to do it because someone is a shitty person who bullies and hurts others, even if they don't do it right in front of me on my game. This hobby is toxic for a reason - we tolerate toxic behavior from toxic people out of a misguided sense of fairness. No one has a right to play on a game.
In the 90s, I ran a game that I really loved. The staff were pretty solid, the theme is one that I'm still fond of.
On it was a player that I had gotten semi-involved with, and I went out to visit them for a few weeks. He turned out to be a lying, predatory jerk that targeted vulnerable people, and I only escaped him, and sexual assault, because of a friend.
When I got back home, I informed my staff that I was going to kick him off the game.
"You can't do that just because a relationship went bad."
"It didn't happen on the game, so it doesn't count."
"You can't let personal feelings get involved."
I stepped down as God, amidst a bunch of accusations that I was a PHB. Word got back to the guy and his friends, and he got a ton of sympathy. I figured that I wasn't the only one he was going to target, isolate, and assault, so I figured I'd be vindicated eventually, but it still hurt.
Several months later, it was discovered that he'd used the game to target a very underage player, was actively grooming them to run away from their family and go stay with him. He didn't, in part because I, who lived in the same town as the player, went over and shared my experiences with them. They weren't entirely convinced, but (with the help of others, I won't claim sole credit) eventually cut it off with him.
Ever since then, if I KNOW, with logs, screencaps, etc, especially from multiple players, that a player is toxic and actively does things to harm people, I have no qualms about kicking them off any game I run-- even if they don't do this shit on my game. I consider that part of my responsibility to my players and MUSHing in general.
VASpider has hung on for years because of this, because people, as the God of PernMUSH once said to me, would rather hew to the ILLUSION of fairness rather than the harder reality.
Take responsibility for the hobby and the part you play in it, MU* Soapbox admins. Do the right thing and drop Auspice from your staff.
(Edit: typo that annoyed me.)
@botulism Agree with the sentiment, but in practice it’s not that simple. I’ve no doubt that @arkandel wants to do the right thing, but if wrongdoing isn’t happening in front of you and there’s no actual evidence beyond someone saying “so and so did this bad thing somewhere else” — it’s often not clear what the right thing actually is. It’s a fine line between holding someone accountable and guilt-by-accusation alone.
There is rarely evidence except for first person accounts from people you believe to be credible. It is not an easy thing to give it, privately or publicly, and to be told that it really does not matter because one needs to be "fair."
That is why people don't come forward. Or they regret doing so immediately. Like me.
I'm gonna just toss out this other, possible reason for the retention of toxic players in the community. Only because it's how I think and it's part of the reason I try not to hold grudges.
We are a small community, split already by various fandoms and RPG systems. I can usually count my regular RP partners on one hand at any given time since I joined up. And no. They are rarely the same folks, as far as I know. I always think to myself: "Is it in my best interest to hang on to my anger at this player from X game or do I just want to play?"
Now, I have been fortunate to have never been in tight with any high profile toxic players. I am always on the fringe of any given clique. I have had a few close calls with known creepers but again, I got lucky. Outside of known problematics, there is only one player I will not associate with. This person is boring, unoriginal, clingy and vindictive. I don't think they post here but I won't name and shame. If I happen upon this player, I cross the figurative street to keep away from them. At the same time, I don't go out of my way to find out if we are in the same circles. Mainly because I'll know the second they pose but still...
I'm rambling. TL;DR: I stick with players because I want someone to play with. I'm sad like that.
Am I the baddie?
Yes. Always yes.
@mietze First person accounts ARE evidence, but it has to be balanced with what the other person has to say about it and their credibility too. I’m not weighing in on this specific instance because I don’t know enough about it. I’m just saying that in general it’s not easy to sort messes like these out.
I do not believe /anyone/ has said that they are easy to sort out. In my case though, I could have if I asked for it at least 3 msb people who can corroborate everything I say happened to me as /eyewitnesses to it/. But it's just about someone being an admin on a message board--is that worth making people think about all that bad experience, and for what end? It's just being an admin on a message board. The last day and a half has been fucking hard enough dealing with crap dredged up again. Ultimately I expect the usual thing to happen. Nothing. But I'm getting pretty fucking tired of the implications that people don't know how complicated this is, or that people just want to air dirty laundry to sandbag someone, or that it's all just because people just didn't like each other. And that is all I am going to say about it. Except for yet again, NO it was NOT worth talking about what happened to me because it doesn't fucking matter.
@kanye-qwest I think our mean streaks have clashed way more than they ever should have. I remember way back when, when we got along fine and just joked around about shit -- which was honestly fun. I really am sorry I let stupid nonsense fuck that up, my own stupid shit and whatever weird whisperings were afoot, and I do really mean that.
