Game of Thrones

Dreampipe

***=Spoilerino***

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Sparks

@Dreampipe YES. THAT. shakes TV

surreality

Because I am me, I noticed this and went 'awwwwwyisssssss' but pretty sure no one else will care. But if/when you watch this episode again...

***Costume Geek Moment!***

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Sockmonkey

exasperated

These two fuckin' people...

***I just can't.***

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Arkandel

***=So after watching last night's episode but also reading a ***

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lot of threads on this show, just a couple of observations.

The producers really like their big set pieces. I mean they really do, to the point of distraction sometimes which isn't so bad, but they are depriving us of some subtler moments in the greater picture.

For example I would have really liked to see the Starks girls' reactions to finding out the greatest secret their family had ever kept. It was significant dammit, they all grew up thinking the most honorable man they knew had cheated on their mom and as it turns out... not so much. And their relationship with Jon, how does that affect it? We don't know because they didn't show it, and unless there's an Arya/Jon crossover in the last two episodes (with a huge battle somewhere in the middle) we might not have time to see any of it.

But also the writers don't seem to care as much for the subtler forces out there. In a way we saw that with Littlefinger, too; at some point near season... six? He was kind of reduced to a monologue-spouting villain and his power seemed to be the Vale - which isn't true.

But in this season it was also shown in the discrepancy between what the interwebs expected from the Night King plotline's resolution (some kind of mystical significance involving Bran, a fulfillment of prophecies, something to do with greater powers at play - hell, even time travel was mentioned) and yet in the director's interview right after Episode 3 he spelled it out for us; Arya killed the Night King because it would surprise the audience. That's it, there was no more thought than that - we put way more thought into it than they did. The writers don't read subreddits or subscribe to theories; they just have deadlines and checkboxes to fill out, and big battle scenes seem to be where they're at.

The weird thing - for me - is they have a pretty good handle on secondary characters. Tyrion's dialogues with Varys, how Brienne and Jaime's story was shamed, various reunions around the first two episodes of season 8 were all pretty stellar. But I don't know they have as good a grip on Jon with Dany, for example, who are often... well, basically they come out as being pretty fucking dumb, and I'm not sure that's intentional. And I'm not even talking about couch-tactician analysis of battle strategies or anything.

Two more to go!

Cupcake

***=***

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Ghost

Hey so....

***=Spoilerificish***

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Selira

@Ghost Hey so about all of that, and the things we have to write to keep spoilers from showing up and being considerate okay this is long enough.

***what thread do you think you're reading***

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Arkandel

***=My prediction for how the show will actually end. We should turn this into a game to compare at the end and see who got closer. ***

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Cupcake

Anyone got predictions on who the Prince Who Was Promised is?

Please note Melisandre confirmed that "prince" is gender neutral.

Ready? Go.

Sparks

A spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler DIS-COURSE DIS-COURSE (to the tune of the "Badger Badger" song).

***=next verse, same as the first...***

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So, the thing I find interesting about Jon in the ASoIaF books is that he pretty much starts as mini-Ned: completely honorable, idealistic, and lacking in guile. And Ned was unquestionably a good person, but I do not think he was actually a good leader when it comes down to it; he was willing to risk everything—his home, his people, his family—because he wouldn't compromise his honor.

But in the books, as Jon is exposed to the real world that Ned-like idealism about honor begins to get stripped away. He learns to lie. He learns that he can't hold blindly to oaths and trust it will come out well. He learns that honor at the expense of everyone else may be a righteous path, but it isn't necessarily the right one. His honor is not worth more than the lives of those he's sworn to protect and lead, and if he blindly lets them pay the price to preserve his honor—really, his pride—then he doesn't deserve to call himself their leader in the first place.

In short, I view Jon's character arc in the books as a journey from "Stark" to... well, something else. Not necessarily "Targaryen" (because let's be honest, we all know R+L=J is true in the books as well), but perhaps something in between the two and stronger for that mix. And in a genre where blind unyielding honor can end up being held up as the shining heroic standard to aspire to, I actually like the books' subversion of that: Jon is becoming better as a leader as he learns to compromise his honor and to put the greater picture ahead of his own pride.

So in the books, if Jon's character arc continues the way it has, I can completely see him being a worthy potential king by the end. He's certainly not there yet—and I don't know whether I really want him to be the one sitting on the Iron Throne at the end of the books—but I believe that in the books he's going to end in a place where he could. And probably one where he could actually do it well.

The problem is that Jon in the TV show also started as mini-Ned... and it feels to me like they've played that completely straight ever since. He's never really even stepped off of that path. Despite everything he's seen and done, he's still pretty much holding to Ned's ideals, and the show seems to consistently portray that as a good thing: the shining, honorable hero who cannot compromise on anything is being sort of pushed as the best person for the job by the narrative. Which, to me, feels like the opposite of the message of the books in this particular character arc.

And as a result, I kind of feel like TV!Jon would be a downright abysmal king, and Varys pushing him as the 'better' candidate is being uncharacteristically blind for someone supposedly so astute—and supposedly so concerned for the populace as a whole. Because "King Aegon" would be honorable and truthful, he'd be charismatic and loved... and within five years all of Westeros would be embroiled in civil war again because he seemingly cannot compromise at all if it would force him to yield even an inch of his precious honor.

Just like Ned.

Arkandel

@Sparks said in Game of Thrones:

And Ned was unquestionably a good person, but I do not think he was actually a good leader when it comes down to it; he was willing to risk everything—his home, his people, his family—because he wouldn't compromise his honor.

I'll tackle this outside of spoiler tags since they're unnecessary for it.

Ned was an excellent liar. In fact he kicked ass with it - he had a secret which he kept from everyone for many years, including his own wife, and in fact he used his immaculate reputation as a way to perpetulate that lie; no one questioned how this honorable man had a bastard with some random chick because why would he lie about it? Duuuh.

And even later in life he made the choice of his people over his honor. It's how he lost his head by admitting to treason specifically so they'd be safe from the Lannisters. Things would have actually worked out pretty well if Joffrey wasn't a complete idiot about it - Eddark Stark in the Night's Watch could have altered the course of several events on the Wall.

Having said that his biggest mistake was made due his honor of course, by warning Cersei about what he knew and giving her a chance to strike first.

Ghost

I wanna see Cersei and Danaerys fight.

And by that I don't mean "dragon vs mountain", I mean Cersei vs Danaerys in a fuck you too, bitch showdown where two characters who are about as martially proficient as Gilly the Wildling choke the fuck out of each other.

Arkandel

@Ghost There will be no kink shaming in this thread so maybe you'll get what you desire, friend.

Ghost

My prediction...

***=Presto! Predicto!***

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Rinel

I have heard that the ending of the season has been leaked. I have been exposed, unintentionally, to what an anonymous rando on the internet claimed to be the ending based on those leaks.

Said ending was so absurd that I do not think the anonymous rando was correct. But if the anonymous rando was correct?

HOO BOY

Sparks

Okay, since we're talking about book 1/season 1 here, I'll stay outside of spoiler tags as well.

@Arkandel said in Game of Thrones:

Ned was an excellent liar. In fact he kicked ass with it - he had a secret which he kept from everyone for many years, including his own wife, and in fact he used his immaculate reputation as a way to perpetulate that lie; no one questioned how this honorable man had a bastard with some random chick because why would he lie about it? Duuuh.

Yes, and (at least in the books) it's made quite clear through his internal dialogue that it's the only lie he's ever told (even if, in the books, we've never had true confirmation about what that lie was), and that he only lied because he swore an oath to do so. And that the conflict between "I must not break my oath" and "I am perpetrating an immense lie" was eating him up inside in many ways.

As for choosing his people over his honor at the end, I agree 100%. However, I think what you seem to be saying is an example of what Ned always was, I see it as Ned making a choice to be something different. He agonizes a lot about whether to make a false confession. And the moment when he decides to do so—making the choice that maybe his honor didn't matter compared to the good of his people and family—seemed like a turning point to me. Yes, that decision cost him his life, but it (mostly) spared his people; I view it as when he stopped being an example (this paragon of honor and truth) to his people, and made a choice as their leader.

In the end, I think we're looking at the same events and interpreting them differently. But, hey, that's part of the fun of fiction!

Arkandel

***=Answers to Coin's predictions under a spoiler tag.***

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Game of Thrones goes down in history as a show that ended too quickly. As in: 5 episodes wasn't enough.

Almost certainly but I think this was inevitable. Think about it - Episode 4 for example barely contained action (perhaps ten minutes of it, total) and it was what, an hour long? That's almost a full-length movie just for politics and wrapping up Episode 3. Granted they could have perhaps used the time more wisely but still, there are many points we need to wait until the end for a resolution. And dammit but I quite liked Episodes 1-2 which is where I'd have saved some time.

As in: The Battle at Winterfell and the Battle at King's Landing will move too quickly and people will feel like not enough was addressed.

Episode 5 is gonna be a fucking bloodbath. I'd be shocked if we don't get at least 3 important/favorite character deaths.

I have a feeling all of this stuff like: What about the Prince who was Promised? Who is this unnamed Dornish Prince? What the fuck ever happened to Edmure Tully or Ellaria Sand? Where is Nymeria? What about the Reed family? I feel like these things will likely not get addressed and hardcore fanpeoples are going to be in Thanks, we liked it, but it was too quick and not thorough enough for our 2 billion theories and love for x or y fringe character mode.

I concur. Look, we (as in, fandom) are putting a lot more thought into this than the writers are. They just want to wrap this up, and they won't risk alienating casual viewers by reminding them of characters we haven't seen in two years (what's a Dorne?), a direwolf they don't remember exists (even Ghost has been barely there) or the whole Reed family ('who?'). And anything trickier than that would be hard to pull off.

So yeah, we'll be told it's an open-ended conclusion and that's it. I seriously doubt that with two episodes left - one of which is an enormous battle scene - they'll have room for anything too fancy; there just isn't enough time to wrap it up. They'll stick to what people know and care about; the Stark kids, Dany and the remaining Lannisters.

I'm not complaining, mind you. It was a hell of a show while they had the books to follow and they didn't do a bad job following through afterwards - it just wasn't on the same very high level, but that's not what they signed up to do. D&D were supposed to have at least one more book to guide them by season 6.

I'm grateful for having a show like this since it opened up a lot of interest in the genre and it has contributed to a resurgence of fantasy across the board.

Ghost

@Arkandel I'm not Coin.

Arkandel

@Ghost And for that you should be eternally grateful. Also, I fucked up.