Incentives for RP

Lisse24

So, we want to spread out RP, but not rely on XP?

I'm just going to spitball here:
I think this can be accomplished on games that have Action Points or some other method of limiting how much action players get in plot or can do behind the scene. In those games, you can lower the total amount of action points slightly, then either a) have new players accrue points at a faster pace for a set amount of time or b) give new players an extra pool. This gives current players incentive to draw new players into plots and factions.

faraday

I must confess though that I've always found it weird that you need to incentivize RP at all. Like... RP is literally the point of the game. Why do I need a carrot on a stick to get people to tell stories, on a game that's about telling stories?

It's pretty baffling to me, honestly.

bear_necessities

On GH, I will regularly award players with luck points that I see being inclusive and 'sharing' plot hooks with other characters. I am always on the lookout for players who rope in other characters outside of their "typical" social circles and I think good RP behavior should be rewarded.

That being said, I have to agree with @faraday to a point - I'm never going to set up a REGULAR reward system, because the point of playing a game is to tell stories. But hey, every so often? I'll give people kudos as a thank you for spreading the love.

Kanye Qwest

@faraday said in Incentives for RP:

I must confess though that I've always found it weird that you need to incentivize RP at all. Like... RP is literally the point of the game. Why do I need a carrot on a stick to get people to tell stories, on a game that's about telling stories?

It's pretty baffling to me, honestly.

Why do people not exercise? Isn't having a long and healthy life literally the point of being alive?

Ghost

@faraday said in Incentives for RP:

I must confess though that I've always found it weird that you need to incentivize RP at all. Like... RP is literally the point of the game. Why do I need a carrot on a stick to get people to tell stories, on a game that's about telling stories?

It's pretty baffling to me, honestly.

talking bird agrees

YES.

I'm with you here. If you're at the point where you have to try to incentivize people to be inclusive, there's kind of a bigger issue. This may be the wrong question/wrong approach to the issue/complaint.

Either way, the whole point of the hobby is to write and be creative. Most games barely use character sheets at all or the dice don't decide everything. MOST scenes don't involve dice at all. XP is fun and feels like progress is being made in a numbers way, but if it's all about the story and the writing, then XP matters not. The incentive is the creative headspace.

faraday

@bear_necessities said in Incentives for RP:

That being said, I have to agree with @faraday to a point - I'm never going to set up a REGULAR reward system, because the point of playing a game is to tell stories. But hey, every so often? I'll give people kudos as a thank you for spreading the love.

Just to be clear - I do fully support giving some sort of kudos (luck points, public praise, etc.) for folks who go above and beyond the normal bar of RPing. Like folks who organize events, run plots for others, etc. But the idea that you need incentives just to play is what's weird to me.

@Kanye-Qwest said in Incentives for RP:

Why do people not exercise? Isn't having a long and healthy life literally the point of being alive?

I don't think that's a valid analogy. We're talking about a form of entertainment here that people are voluntarily participating in. A better analogy would be: Why would you join a baseball team if you don't intend to go to the games and play?

@Ghost said in Incentives for RP:

I'm with you here. If you're at the point where you have to try to incentivize people to be inclusive, there's kind of a bigger issue. This may be the wrong question/wrong approach to the issue/complaint.

Yeah, I think that another way to incentivize RP on your game is to make the RP fun. Getting people involved and giving them interesting things to get involved in doesn't have to require trinkets and rewards.

Ghost

@faraday I dig your positive chi approach.

Problem? Roll out the cupcakes, beer, karaoke, and fun. Everyone likes fun.

Don't move back. Move forward. Word.

Arkandel

@Lotherio said in Incentives for RP:

My question is more, must everything be XP oriented incentive wise or are there other incentives that could work that are less, well, gamey to me. @Tinuviel made a great comment, it takes more work and XP is easier to hand out.

The issue here is many games (most, really) are inadvertently painting themselves into a corner by not giving any other of mechanical reward than XPs, thus making them the only reward possible.

That's often because their systems are derived from table-top systems which don't require any other progression ladders, but for MU* there are so many possibilities. Some modern games have 'action points' of one sort or other to signify how a character spends their free time, there can be resources of various kinds (which a human GM can't micromanage but a computer certainly can), etc.

So sometimes XPs are all you can give your players, but that's because you didn't build a game around the idea of anything else existing that you can reward them with.

faraday

@Arkandel said in Incentives for RP:

That's often because their systems are derived from table-top systems which don't require any other progression ladders, but for MU* there are so many possibilities.

The TTRPG analogy is interesting, because I think when you look at the reason XP systems exist in TTRPGs, it's not to "incentivize people to play". Hopefully you're showing up at the table because you're having fun with your friends and the GM is telling a good story.

I'd argue that XP systems are more about the OOC learning curve (i.e. don't overwhelm the newbies with too many rules to learn, spells to memorize, etc.) and a reflection of the Hero's Journey (start off small and go epic) and have very little to do with providing motivation for the players to keep playing.

If your players are only showing up for the XP, your game has issues.

ETA: MMOs are more about the level grind than TTRPGs, but that's a different animal. The leveling/loot/etc. is baked into the way you unlock additional game content and such, and keeps you on the treadmill of spending money in their ecosystem.

Ghost

Gonna note that I think my standard theory that there are 2 kinds of mushers applies here.

Mushers are either:

People who want to creatively collaborate on writing, and use RPG systems as a backend game engine for conflict resolution
RPG gamers who want to play RPGs, with their systems (xp, dice, tables) as the driving engine, but want collaborative writing to supplement.

You give different incentives for creative writers than you do xp-driven murder hobo TT gamers.

ETA: Some people are like "How much XP did I get for this scene? I'm saving for my SUPER MECHA ARMOR that gives me +10 missiles, and I really wanna write about how he gets it." and others are "Meh, XP is nice, but I want my follow-up scene and my creative ideas in +jobs to be looked at."

Thenomain

I log into an RP game to RP.

I’ve always hated the culture in WoD games that there was more to it than that, and I am deeply sorry for helping create the +vote system that lead to this.

My bad.

Ghost

@Thenomain It's all good, Theno. You're good people. You won't go down in history as the Mengele of mushing for that.

In terms of bad people..
1: Hitler
2: Another Nazi...
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45: Still more Nazis
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2250: Anti-Vaccers
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4500: Stephen Seagal
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12443223097754: Thenomain's +vote system

Lotherio

@Ghost said in Incentives for RP:

4500: Stephen Seagal
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.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4Ao-iNPPUc

How dare you! Oh, not Steve 'N Seagulls.

Sparks

@Thenomain said in Incentives for RP:

I am deeply sorry for helping create the +vote system that lead to this.

I mean, that's going pretty far back. The earliest one I know of from personal experience is Firan's @vote system in 1997 or 1998, and I know there were other games that used coded voting even earlier than that. I vaguely recall the original Tales of Ta'veren had some kind of vote-reward system around 1996, and I think Cybersphere MOO had a coded stats/skills system that used voting in 1995, which were themselves presumably inspired by wherever it is that +vote originated.

So it's been at least 22 years at this point, maybe 24—and maybe rather more, since I dunno which game you first coded it on—since +vote was introduced. Given the sheer number of games that have come and gone since then which have tried to emulate tabletop roleplay in various settings—i.e., with coded sheets and the advancement thereof—I feel like the concept of +vote would've been introduced more than once by now across multiple genres of game.

In other words, someone else would've come up with it by now anyway; I wouldn't beat yourself up about it. Especially not 24+ years after the fact, or however long it's been.

surreality

@Sparks I don't think they had voting for XP (at least in 97 when I played there iirc). It was pure 'slog through bashing on AHaBs in Nirvana. (AHaB: 'Almost Human Bastard', the automated critters MOO Quinn (not to be confused with forum Quinn) made, before anyone thinks this is some kind of weird insult to someone somehow.)

They did have voting for city mayor every so often, which... is a totally different ball of hilarious crazy.

Three-Eyed Crow

@Sparks
Yeah I remember encountering it on Tales, which was my first MUSH.

Arkandel

@Thenomain said in Incentives for RP:

I log into an RP game to RP.

It's a complex problem. For example in MMORPGs there are many people who want the gear raiding provides but don't like to raid. However unless they raid the gear isn't useful.

So why do they want it?

Seraphim73

@faraday said in Incentives for RP:

I must confess though that I've always found it weird that you need to incentivize RP at all. Like... RP is literally the point of the game.

While I agree with you that the need to do this is kind of baffling, I also think that if you incentivize the type of RP you want, then it's worthwhile. Because yes, everyone is here for RP, because MUSHes are RP games, but not everyone is here to spread plot hooks and welcome new players onto the grid and generally support the actions of others. Many players feel that's burdensome, so if you want it, you incentivize it.

Ghost

@Arkandel said in Incentives for RP:

@Thenomain said in Incentives for RP:

I log into an RP game to RP.

It's a complex problem. For example in MMORPGs there are many people who want the gear raiding provides but don't like to raid. However unless they raid the gear isn't useful.

So why do they want it?

Because the horse ultimately wants the carrot, and not the stick.

Sparks

I mean, let's say you want people to go RP with newbies to help get them into the game. But people often tend to cluster, to RP with their trusted friends and existing RP partners, yes? And if just pointing out, "Hey, new players probably would like RP too" hasn't worked, you presumably need some sort of additional factor to help change that behavior.

Do you punish them if they don't? "Hey, I see that you haven't played with a newcomer to the game in at least six weeks. You know what that means; it's time for a public shaming!" I don't see that working to help people welcome new players; I see that being a great way to turn your players into someone else's new players.

Do you reward them if they do? It seems more likely to succeed, but... what form does that reward take? A nice post on the bboards? "So, Susan RP'd with three new players this week. Everyone applaud Susan!"

Or is a more tangible reward more motivating, one that they can redeem for something later? Maybe it's XP, maybe it's karma/luck points that can be spent to buy your way out of a bad roll, maybe it's a sort of 'staff time' currency that can be redeemed for "Hey, I want to spend 30 staff points to have this specific thing GM'd." (Though I personally kind of hate that last one. I feel like if there's a currency that can be used to buy staff time/attention, it should probably be something available to all players, not something you need to jump through hoops to earn.)

It's great to say "we're here to RP, so we don't need incentives to RP" but... demonstrably, we are often creatures of inertia. It's easy to play with the same old people, or even just sit idle and chat with the same old people. Want to change any of that behavior? It'll probably take either a deterrent (for those who don't engage in the behavior), or an incentive (for those who do), and of those two I would vastly prefer to be handing out incentives than arbitrary punishments.