The Basketball Thread

Warma Sheen · Jun 18, 2019, 3:27 AM

I think it is obvious that the Lakers are done trying to rebuild their team through the draft. Yes, they have gotten some players that seem like they should be very good, but it hasn't done anything from them. And after their disappointing 4th in the draft this year, they're turning to doing it like the recent champions have done it. Free agency. They are betting big that they won't need their next 3 first round draft picks.

Also, after all the problems the Lakers front office has had, they are trying to fix it all by just winning. As an organization, it would be worth the extra payout. The Lakers, as a commodity, has always had a strong image. But after years of losing the mess with Pelinka and Johnson (and the recent coaching search fiasco) have put the Lakers name in the toilet. Magic Johnson = Lakers. And after buying into the Dodgers, Magic Johnson has been closer and closer to fully beloved status across LA. And now Johnson has thrown the entire organization under the bus.

On the surface, it looks like they overpaid. But if they can start winning next season, all of that will be forgotten. And that would definitely be worth it, but that's a big IF. It is a calculated gamble that could work out very well for them. Especially with the Warriors out for the year. I just don't know that just LeBron and Davis get them there though. LeBron wasn't impressive last year. The year before that he willed the Cavs to the finals but he couldn't do much with what the Lakers had. Some because he's in decline, some because the roster was a mess. But just getting Davis doesn't get that done.

Arkandel · Jun 18, 2019, 12:36 PM

@Warma-Sheen Davis and LeBron's game at least on paper has incredible synergy; a play initiator (perhaps the best we've ever seen) with a play finisher (top-3 in the league with Harden and Steph).

The real question other than injuries which we can't predict is how they will finish up their roster.

Now, Lakers aside, there are a lot of free agents this year. Where they will end up with will determine the face of the league - it's insane people are already betting on who wins the next ring before even basic questions like these are answered.

Ganymede · Jun 18, 2019, 1:48 PM

@Warma-Sheen said in The Basketball Thread:

On the surface, it looks like they overpaid. But if they can start winning next season, all of that will be forgotten.

I think we all had a conversation about the Leonard trade last year too, and this came up.

This trade legitimately makes the Lakers a contender now, especially in light of the Thompson and Durant injuries. There's not enough talent on the Spurs to make them truly dangerous against a combination of James and Davis, and Harden and Paul are two ball-hogs that can't seem to get on the same page (I could say the same about Westbrook and George).

The next domino to fall will be Leonard. I think that he is honorable enough to figure out where he's going before August, and I do think that the Raptors are his most likely destination. But even if Leonard doesn't come back, there are some great free agents guards and forwards that could be signed on to take up Leonard's minutes. The Raptors have substantial depth that they could use to ride out the regular season, and then turn it on during the playoffs.

Arkandel · Jun 18, 2019, 3:12 PM

@Ganymede Frankly I don't think you can overpay for a guy like AD when you already have a superstar in his 30s. If these playoffs have shown us anything it's that you need a guy who can do impossible things if you want to win. You need that kind of top 5-7 player.

The Lakers now have two of them. If they stay healthy the league is in trouble.

Also let's put it this way - unless you're going to pay Ingram a max he's going to leave next year, so at best he was a rental and you'd need to pick between him and AD (since the Pelicans wanted him). It's a no-brainer.

Lonzo and Heart were the real losses, draft picks aren't that useful to the Lakers any more unless they want to do more trades. This just means they 100% won't be trading for anyone else any time soon, it's free agents or nothing.

Ganymede · Jun 18, 2019, 3:59 PM

@Arkandel said in The Basketball Thread:

Frankly I don't think you can overpay for a guy like AD when you already have a superstar in his 30s.

That's what I was getting at. The Raptors didn't overpay for Leonard, and the Lakers haven't overpaid for Davis. The Lakers made the right move, given the Warriors' anticipated weakness in the upcoming season.

Frankly, I don't think the Lakers are worse off without Ball and Hart. Losing Ingram hurt, but now James can slip back into SF. Davis sits at C with Kuzma at PF. Now you just need to shore up your guards.

And word is that Irving may want to chase with James and Davis.

Ghost · Jun 18, 2019, 4:06 PM

Also: Congrats on Canada for winning a "WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP" in one of the leagues the States auto-assumes US dominance in by rote of 99% of the teams being in the US.

When was the last time? 92-93 Blue Jays? Good on them for winning the WORLD series for the WORLD championship in baseball, which the US had dominated the WORLD in since its inception.

Ganymede · Jun 19, 2019, 1:18 PM

In rumors,

The folks at ESPN made a good point. If Leonard signs a long-term supermax deal now, he could make $190M over five years with the Raptors or $140M over four years with another team, like the Clippers. But if he signs a long-term deal in 2021, when he'd have 10 years under him, he could make tens of millions more. With Lowry, Ibaka, FVV, and Siakam under contract next year, and Gasol all but assured to exercise his one year option, it makes more financial sense for Leonard to remain in Toronto for a couple of years.

Arkandel · Jun 19, 2019, 1:23 PM

@Ganymede I don't know how big a motivator money is for Kawhi. Seriously - if it was a big deal to him he'd have stayed with the Spurs who had his bird rights. He lost a serious paycheck walking away from San Antonio, and he did it on purpose.

I have no idea how that guy thinks or what he wants. Zero.

Ganymede · Jul 6, 2019, 2:14 PM

@Arkandel

If continuing with a team means risking a career-ending injury, then you would walk away from a serious paycheck and force them to trade you, which he did.

Money is always a factor. Plus, are the Clippers a contender? I don't think so.

Arkandel · Jul 6, 2019, 2:14 PM

Sonovabitch.

Waller · Jul 6, 2019, 7:36 PM

That was so unexpected. But it was worth it, just to hear an entire barbershop full of people yell "Paul George?!" at once.

Arkandel · Jul 6, 2019, 9:20 PM

@Waller said in The Basketball Thread:

That was so unexpected. But it was worth it, just to hear an entire barbershop full of people yell "Paul George?!" at once.

The Thunder need to go into an immediate rebuild. I suspect Westbook will be converted into picks by the end of next week at the most, and pieces like Adams traded for whatever young players they can get - his contract isn't too bad but it is not great either.

The Raptors need to regroup. They have some great young pieces (Siakam, OG, FVV) on good contracts and some expiring ones. I'd trade the latter soon - they won't go anywhere with this team even in the East since teams like the Sixers and Bucks far outgun them now. A possibility might be trading Lowry (who's an expiring) and maybe picks for Westbrook, depending on how the GMs feel their chances in free agency are.

The Lakers won't be nearly as good as they would have been with Kawhi, let's be real, but they did build a more rounded roster. The caveat (and what they can have a legitimate beef) is that because of Kawhi they waited for too long and many of the better support cast went to other teams - if his camp just used them as leverage it was a shitty but legitimate move. For me a lot will depend on how good Boogie comes back as after a full summer's rehab and training - offensively they are a fucking juggernaut but defensively they have so many issues.

As for the Clippers they look like title favorites. Their guard and small forward rotation is insane, with several great shooters who can all play defense as well - Leonard, George, Beverley, Williams, etc. They don't have paint protection worth a damn other than Zubac though but they might not need it if. That's a 49 win team which took the full Warriors to 6 games, and they just replaced two overachievers with two MVP candidates.

Jerry West is basically the best team builder in sports history and it's not even close.

Auspice · Oct 17, 2019, 2:45 AM

RightMeow · Oct 17, 2019, 3:28 AM

I know nothing of any sportsball things. But can I say I giggled at it being in 'tastes less gamey' - Like comeon, it's sports. It is a game.

I know it means not MU*, but it still made me giggle.

Auspice · Oct 17, 2019, 3:43 AM

@RightMeow said in The Basketball Thread:

I know nothing of any sportsball things. But can I say I giggled at it being in 'tastes less gamey' - Like comeon, it's sports. It is a game.

I know it means not MU*, but it still made me giggle.

it and the football and such threads could prob survive being moved to the Other Games board, I agree.

ETA: ALL Non-MU* games used to live here. When I was an Admin, I made the Other Games board. I moved most stuff, but I missed sportsball. That's entirely on me.

Warma Sheen · Oct 17, 2019, 4:25 AM

I guess I must have missed when LeBron supported China...

What was it that he said? Cause I caught the 'actions have consequences' part, but must have missed the 'I'm with China' part.

Ugh. People are just the worst.

Auspice · Oct 17, 2019, 4:41 AM

@Warma-Sheen said in The Basketball Thread:

I guess I must have missed when LeBron supported China...

What was it that he said? Cause I caught the 'actions have consequences' part, but must have missed the 'I'm with China' part.

Ugh. People are just the worst.

His 'actions have consequences' was because he shit-talked Morey's Tweet, saying 'He wasn't educated about...'

And then he also complained 'Me and my team had a hard week' and 'He should have waited just a week to post that tweet'

Basically all boiling down to: 'this man showing his support for Hong Kong made it harder for us ' which was hella insensitive towards, y'know, protesters who are dying and in hospitals. It was insanely insensitive and someone vocalizing support shouldn't be told 'you should have waited until our team was home to say anything' esp. by a man who, just earlier this year, spoke out about how much he supported Kaepernick's right to protest.

ETA: So it really just came out to look like since he was faced with losing deals with China, the Space Jam 2 deal, etc..... LeBron's big talk of supporting protest, human rights, etc.... all fell apart when it was his money that was threatened vs. someone else's money.

Warma Sheen · Oct 18, 2019, 12:09 AM

@Auspice said in The Basketball Thread:

His 'actions have consequences' was because he shit-talked Morey's Tweet, saying 'He wasn't educated about...'

Morey said that about himself in his apology post. So either he really wasn't educated about the issue or he tucked his own integrity to keep his job. Either way, that's all on Morey. And the protests have been going on for months. He just happened to pick a time to say something when one of his conference's biggest opponents were there. Whether that was on purpose or not, his ignorance might have caused serious problems for people. Being stuck overseas in a politically hostile country is no small joke.

I have a co-worker, Michael White, currently imprisoned for some indeterminate time (years) in Iran on what is basically a political dispute when he went to visit someone. They won't even say why. The best the consulate can come up with it was based on pro democratic views he expressed either there or from something he posted online.

A friend of mine was traveling on his way home from Mount Everest when the US decided to have the CEO of Huawei arrested in Vancouver. My friend's connection was out of China and his flight got canceled. He and several other people in the airport were then arrested for overstaying the 1 day visa that was allowed for the connection. He had to pay something close to $1000 to be released.

China's issues with the US can get dangerous for Americans there so 'had a hard week' might be downplaying what they experienced there.

Also, Kaep's protests were about the treatment of black people in the USA by police authorities, a cause LeBron protested on himself, a cause he's got a personal connection to (being black and living in the USA). Kaep lost his career over his actions, which included endorsements - but he stood behind what he believed in despite what it cost him. LeBron was willing to risk the same to protest in his own way when he wore shirts that had Eric Garner's last words on them. But people so quickly forget about that.

Morey, on the other hand immediately issued an apology and reversal in the most groveling way possible.

As for China, they have a huge, long history of human rights abuses, but people still do business with them all the time. And almost no one speaks out about it. And no one gives all those people shit about not speaking out about it. Its a huge double standard for people that just like to hate on others whenever they can from the comfort of their homes.

TLDR:

Personally, I don't think supporting Kaepernick's (and his own) right to protest here in the US where that right is constitutionally protected is quite equal to Morey's offhand tweet about Chinese (which he is not) in China (where he is not) that he either doesn't know anything about or doesn't have enough spine to stand behind.

If Morey isn't willing to stand behind his own words, especially after all the stir he caused for himself, his team and the NBA in general, why does anyone expect LeBron to? Just because LeBron supported one person's protest doesn't mean he has to support every idiot who wants to speak up about something. Not all protests are created equal.

Arkandel · Oct 18, 2019, 5:23 PM

I just think LeBron lost a great deal of respect in many people's eyes, my own included - and I've been a great fan of his work outside of a basketball court for years now - after all this.

For starters he is sending an inconsistent message as well as a wrong one. For example in the interviews he gave lately he suggested people can't be educated and shouldn't criticize situations about far-away places they've not experienced themselves; what about Akron, Ohio? I'm not a black kid being abused by the police there, should I not care? And if I do why wouldn't I care about Chinese kids in Hong Kong openly threatened by a superpower's Head of State with 'shattered bones'?

For another he spoke about the way this affected him and others as if that will draw any sympathy at all. The base salary in the NBA is $898,310 - and rest assured, the vast majority of athletes who might be impacted by any of this are superstars with their own branded shoes being sold in China, and thus have made much more than that.

So what is the worse case scenario here? LeBron got slower than normal room service while he was there? He's in the final few years of his career and has a guaranteed $1B contract with Nike alone - are we supposed to feel bad because he might make less money going forward?

Who's sympathizing with whom here, and why?

Auspice · Oct 18, 2019, 12:32 AM

@Warma-Sheen From all appearances, Morey was forced to withdraw the tweet and make an apology.

The same as players have been in the past, which we've criticized organizations for. Which is what has led to player protests.

You can't say now 'oh well Morey shou-'

That is exactly why we're mad at LeBron.