ShadowRun 5E ... 2050

[Groth]

@Misadventure said:

Again, if it's not going to be used, it is serving no purpose save a barrier to play. If the player will get use out of it, or if other players will get use out of it via IC investigation or Player as StoryTeller, great. Otherwise I see no point to it.

No need to convince me about lack of STs etc, I am aware. I am focused on functionality.

That's why they should be an optional incentive so they can serve their actual purpose of helping the player provide more depth to their character.

[Miss Demeanor]

What if I don't feel I need pre-determined questions in order to make an in-depth character? I'm still going to feel like I -have- to answer those stupid questions just to be at the same starting level as everyone else. Incentivized BG's just end up penalizing the people that don't want to or don't feel they need to.

At the end of the day, the people that WANT to write a bg, will write a bg. They won't need 'incentives' to do it. Incentivizing a bg just penalizes the people that don't like writing bg's. If they have a purpose of 'providing more depth', why do you need a reward to do it?

[Groth]

Indeed all incentives can be viewed as punishments for those that do not take them, however taking that pessimist view does in my experience never lead anywhere positive.

The reason to provide players with incentives is to make them more inclined to take actions you feel are desirable but not necessary.

[Misadventure]

So again, if the player gets no value out of it for characterization, and no one else is going to use it, WHY?

This is exactly the situation where your incentive is punishment.

Player A writes stuff, learns about character, plays well. Player B doesn't write stuff, plays well. Player A has more XP than Player B.

This makes no sense. The only context where the reward of XP makes sense, is the one where XP are being offered for doing something, whether it helps you or not. It's self referential.

You'd be better served by allowing folks to get an incentive for revealing in an interesting way their character history or motivations to other players, in play. IC conversation, narrative if that suites the players tastes, whatever.

Incentivize the behavior you want, which is characters that are thought out and expressed to other players. Your written BG guarantees nothing about expressing it to others, wastes some players time, and acts as a punishment to those who DON'T NEED IT.

Or do it your way.

[mietze]

I think that staffside the want is documentation.

Though the thing with XP is that there are always going to be fair/unfair things. On a passive XP game, why should someone who sits in the OOC room 99 percent of the time have more XP than the person who created their PC a month later but has been active and doing things in the world? If XP only comes through +votes, why should the people who lurk in large group scenes for the +vote/here have more XP than the people who stick to small scenes or who have less on grid time but are very active, but may not receive the volume of votes? If it's a game that values documentation of background happenings/philsophies given to staff (whether or not it's used) then the people who choose not to participate in that way may have less XP than someone who does. Depending on the XP total, it may not be significant.

[Three-Eyed Crow]

I'm going to need a definition of "unfair" as some are using it. How is an incentive that anyone can take advantage of at any time, and is not dependent on how much time you have to spend online or who you're buddies with, or anything really except wanting to spend a couple hours writing a character history, "unfair?"

I can see reasons for not liking XP incentives for BGs (though I don't terribly agree with them) but the terrible unfair burden of it all is not computing.

ETA: I also really like the idea of a Shadowrun game and will probably look into anything that might exist in the future. Fun theme, dunno why there aren't more games based on it kicking around.

[Misadventure]

I dunno, I wasn't discussing fair in any form.

I was discussing decision making with an intent to actually have a positive, functional effect.

And AGAIN, functionality. IF staff are actually going to use a BG then great, have at it. Staff rarely do, and if they aren't going to I am suggesting you not require more than they will use, AND that they not penalize anyone for failing to write a bunch of text no one will read.

IF, THEN.
IF NOT, THEN NOT.

waving of arms and screaming in Kermit frustration for comedic effect

MEANWHILE would this new game allow player run and designed missions? I've heard those do really well in cyberpunk/shadowrun type setups.

[Lithium]

Player Ran Plots (PrP's) will be welcomed and allowed. I am putting a system together to give people inspiration for PrP's that help promote the ongoing story arc of the game. For example:

Corp A wants ___ from Corp B. They are willing to finance a run for it. Someone can claim that run, run it, and the people who run it and those who participated get cool adventure and rewards. Rewards will be higher rep/notoriety gains, and a higher monetary/rewards cap, plus the first chance at new contacts added to the contacts list possibly. After the run is completed, I can make new events for the fallout from that, as corporations and people adjust to the changes.

That doesn't take away from PrP's, but it means I can put out stuff to give people /direction/ for PrP's which I think is extremely powerful in the MU* environment. It also rewards people for going beyond the milkrun for my buddies PrP circles or whatnot.

As for backgrounds I plan to reward a well written background.

There will also be archetype character creation which is generally a fill in the blanks bullet point thing to help give your character personality and life beyond the archetype.

The primary lifepath creation will handle backgrounds very simply as a lifepath is chosen, players are required to put in the most significant (To the character) event that occurred during that time just to get them to think about their character beyond what their dice say without requiring a novella or the like.

[tragedyjones]

@Lithium - Doesn't SR5 literally have a random shadowrun generator chart in the back?

[Lithium]

@tragedyjones said:

@Lithium - Doesn't SR5 literally have a random shadowrun generator chart in the back?

There is, but as we all know a ShadowRun needs more than an outline. In ShadowRun especially we don't know how the players are going to approach a particular run. Most of the time the Johnson is going to say: Get me this from there, with some caveats but /how/ they go about doing that is up to the runners and if they are smart they will play to their strengths. If they aren't, they'll just see everything as a nail and they're the hammer.

It's a neat little thing for the beginnings of a plot idea sure, be useful for PrP's if you want to come up with something without much overall thought to it. It'd be an easy thing to code up to display in the player nexus for people to derp around with for possible prp ideas.

[JDCorley]

I thought you said back on p4 that people wouldn't be allowed to go on shadowruns without some other authorized person running the scenario?

[ThugHeaven]

She said, if you want to go on a run wait for someone to run one or run one yourself on pg 4.

[FiranSurvivor]

I'm going to harp on this (though I don't really see it as harping... more like repping) but I don't see a difference between a storyteller actively being on a scene and GMing (adding another person to the list of people to coordinate times with and also making them THE MOST IMPORTANT PERSON) and that same storyteller crafting a run that can be automated to a degree (the game spits out poses, options, necessary rolls, tracks all that with fail/succeed states and branching paths) so that a group could run it without them needing to be there. Staff could also check a submitted log to make sure the group of runners actually posed and didn't just diddle themselves.

Yes it does remove the possibility of something crazy outside of the box like waiting in the noodle hut next store until the CEO of the MegaCorp who is addicted to General Tsang's Crazy Noodles (info that you acquired outside the current scene) comes in and you ply him with delicious noodles for information... but sacrifices can be made to help a world seem more alive.

At the same time such a system doesn't necessarily kill the idea of a live GMed run. Just another option.

[ThatGuyThere]

@FiranSurvivor
Wouldn't automation to that point basically make it a mud? Not that there would be anything wrong with a Shadowrun mud but I know it would not be anything i would be interested in.
What draws me to text based games is the interaction with other people and because there is a human mind running the plots the ability to come up with an idea out of left field and run with it.
For automated have to stick with basic path sort of things, well for that i have lots of video games and they have pretty pictures.
And I also disagree that is doesn't kill the live runs, people are creatures of least resistance, if there is an automated way even if it is inferior that is what will be used and live runs will become ultra rare.

[Lithium]

Here we go again.

The more I see the same old crap over and over the more I want to shelve the whole thing.

I'm not going to automate runs.

I will explain why, for the last time:

Automation does not work when there is any objective other than 'kill this mobile npc'. That's all there is. Kill this object. Whether you are using combat skills, whether you are using social skills, magic, decking to kill mobile IC, whatever, all you're doing is rolling dice and playing with code.

It's not interactive.

There is no outside the box approach.

There is only combat pools.

Talk about boring!

Stop bringing it up in this thread, it's not on topic, it never will be, make your own god forsaken thread about trying to turna MUX into a MUD.

EDIT: Also, no matter HOW many lines of supposed 'poses' that I could try to automate, it'd still be repetition at it's worst. Oh look another random run, well we know what these npc's stats are! This will be a cake walk. Ok now this is going to happen next!

The greatest part about TableTop and about MU*'ing (to me) is /not knowing what is going to happen next/. Most video games don't have any real replayability without a billion billion lines of code. I am not coding ShadowRun version of Skyrim into a MUX. Just not happening. Quit asking for it.

[Groth]

I agree. A random run generator can be a great starting point for someone that wants to PrP a run but it can never replace a run.

[FiranSurvivor]

@ThatGuyThere said:

@FiranSurvivor
Wouldn't automation to that point basically make it a mud? Not that there would be anything wrong with a Shadowrun mud but I know it would not be anything i would be interested in.
What draws me to text based games is the interaction with other people and because there is a human mind running the plots the ability to come up with an idea out of left field and run with it.
For automated have to stick with basic path sort of things, well for that i have lots of video games and they have pretty pictures.
And I also disagree that is doesn't kill the live runs, people are creatures of least resistance, if there is an automated way even if it is inferior that is what will be used and live runs will become ultra rare.

You do make a good point that humans often go for the point of least resistance and thats a fair statement about the idea of a video game vs a MUSH.

[ThugHeaven]

@Lithium I wouldn't get too discouraged. Right from the beginning, you said what it is you planned to do and it sounds awesome! I'm excited for it. I haven't had anything constructive to add, so I haven't said anything.

This thread has taken a strange turn a long time ago. I almost feel like people are posting just to post something. Let the peanut gallery be the peanut gallery. People can make their own Mu* with all those features. You get to make what you want and people will most definitely come to play.

[FiranSurvivor]

When ever you completely misconstrue and strawman the shit out of my arguments I almost feel obliged to respond. Frankly seeing your over the top and ultra-defensive responses is bringing the troll out in me.

[Lithium]

@FiranSurvivor said:

When ever you completely misconstrue and strawman the shit out of my arguments I almost feel obliged to respond. Frankly seeing your over the top and ultra-defensive responses is bringing the troll out in me.

I don't think you have any fucking idea what misconstrue or strawman really means.