The Cyberpunk 2077 Snuff Chip Problem

[Carma]

This post is deleted!

[Misadventure]

@kireek First off, I think you are on a slippery slope dealing with the presentation of anything in fiction or reality as potential trickery or manipulation. The question of does knowing about something mean it will alter you and make you support or recreate that something.

On the other hand, I have had a lifelong interest in representing the difficulties of overcoming social ills like sexism, racism, classism, but have learned that MU* communities can't deal with any of those save perhaps classism without violating their sensibilities about behavior and player control.

So its something MU*ers already deal with, in a general sense.

I do think that awareness, and visceral empathy is actually needed for many of the worlds ills.

BTW I would avoid the film Brainstorm.

[Jeshin]

Cyberpunk is not really an open world game. It's a game with a story. In the underlying tabletop game which Cyberpunk 2077 is based on there are more stats than the 6 you have access too.

They restrict these stats because they have to do with who you are as a character and despite all the dialogue options and life path choices you can make with V the developers clearly retain the creative control of what story they are telling with that character.

Why does this matter?

That BD section is part of the game. It's part of the narrative of the game. You can argue it's almost a required portion of the game. This is the same game where I can run over an entire crowd of civilians and then just outrun the police. The same game where I can gun down an enemy and see they are clearly still alive on the ground (but incapped) and put one in their head (you know they were alive because dmg will appear when you shoot the body and they stop moving).

You cannot tell me that watching a BD snuff film is more morally hazardous than all the wonton violence I can get involved in. Like there is literally

I don't know how spoilers work, but if I did I'd finish the above thought.

[Kireek]

Let me break this down as simply as I can..

Keep in mind that the book I Referenced is very well known and respected in Poland and Germany, and brings up a lot about psychology, culture and society and adapting to negative situations.. This is a well established cultural discussion point, and this game was written by poles, designed by poles, and made by poles, many of whom probably had that book as required reading.

Let us move on then towards what is happening...

1. WHy did CD Project Red make this sequence instead of something else? There was a point to spend meticulous man hours on what is ultimate a sequence which could be done a myriad other ways. This was done with a purpose what purpose?

2. To show that the world of cyberpunk is fucked up? HOW? How is it showing its fucked up? Why is this necessary?

3. Becuase there is a market for BDs like this, that society has decayed so much that death is commercialize. But how does this market exist?

4. We reach the crux of the problem... and the original post. It isn't freaks that make the market, there are too few to really make such a detailed operation sustainable..

And instead of dressing it, I wonder why people are so quick to point out it isn't real and fake.. when that.. clearly is obvious? Like no duh? It doesn't change the fact people are participating in this sequence without questioning it. Just following along, perpetuating the market in this game..

That raises no eyebrows or questions? None at all?

As for why it is a trick.. eh, it doesn't really explain what participation means in a broader context. I'm not arguing that watching a video game snuff film is somehow morally hazardous, but is instead illuminating about how easy it is to manipulate someone into DOING something that COULD be morally hazardous.

[Derp]

@kireek said in The Cyberpunk 2077 Snuff Chip Problem:

We reach the crux of the problem... and the original post. It isn't freaks that make the market, there are too few to really make such a detailed operation sustainable..

You're making an assumption, here. A pretty big one. Niche markets are still markets. It just means that you have less competition and can, in fact, charge higher prices, especially given the danger/effort involved in making it.

Yes, it absolutely can be sold to 'a couple of freaks' for very high prices, just like any other item in a niche market.

@kireek said in The Cyberpunk 2077 Snuff Chip Problem:

And instead of [ad]dressing it, I wonder why people are so quick to point out it isn't real and fake.. when that.. clearly is obvious? Like no duh? It doesn't change the fact people are participating in this sequence without questioning it. Just following along, perpetuating the market in this game..
That raises no eyebrows or questions? None at all?

...no. Because it very clearly is a game, and you're using it as justification of some kind of ... what? Social engineering experiment? That just isn't there. Like, you are the only person seeing it.

And hey, maybe you're right and we're all being trained to be Secret Nazis, or whatever. But like -- given the events of 2020, nobody has to be subtle about that shit anymore. You can just vote them into office.

@kireek said in The Cyberpunk 2077 Snuff Chip Problem:

As for why it is a trick.. eh, it doesn't really explain what participation means in a broader context.

Because there is no broader context. That's -- kind of the point, here. The game does not have to make a commentary on the society of the world we live in. It just doesn't. It exists, as a thing, unto itself, and requires no justification.

@kireek said in The Cyberpunk 2077 Snuff Chip Problem:

WHy did CD Project Red make this sequence instead of something else? There was a point to spend meticulous man hours on what is ultimate a sequence which could be done a myriad other ways. This was done with a purpose what purpose?

To show that the world of cyberpunk is fucked up? HOW? How is it showing its fucked up? Why is this necessary?

Becuase there is a market for BDs like this, that society has decayed so much that death is commercialize. But how does this market exist?

We reach the crux of the problem... and the original post. It isn't freaks that make the market, there are too few to really make such a detailed operation sustainable..

The crux of the problem is that you are trying to inject entirely too much RL into what is essentially an escapist fantasy, albeit a dark one, with apparently very little understanding that people are capable of separating fantasy and reality, and one does not necessarily influence the other as much as you seem to think it does, book thesis or no book thesis.

[TheOnceler]

To get to this scene you will have already seen a snuff braindance, so I'm not sure what the point of this is.

Also any pretending that CDPR had the awareness to do some kind of wink wink nudge nudge Funny Games you're the real monster bullshit (which let's be clear, any movie maker who does this can eat a big fuckin pile of turds) is a bigger fantasy than The Witcher 1-3.

[Jeshin]

@kireek

Why BDs and why the topic matter they selected for them?

Cyberpunk as a genre is about the commodification of humanity and everything else.

The ability to save and replay and edit a life experience for consumer pleasure is commodification.

SPOILER
SPOILER
SPOILER
SPOILER
There is a story separate from the main storyline wherein you are hired to kill someone. When you track them down you find they are very odd and have the crazy or holy thing going on. You find out that a BD production company (a corp) is getting this guy out of jail and off death row because he wants to be crucified for real as part of a message he believes he needs to send to the world. This man is a murderer who killed several people.

There are multiple points in this storyline wherein you can try and convince him to stop. I didn't. I opted not to encourage or discourage but to support. As a player I wanted to see whether this character would realize he is being played. This side mission also inspires a lot of dialogue with Johnny which is interesting.

At the end of this storyline you opt into telling him he shouldn't NOT be crucified and can even HAMMER THE NAILS INTO HIM YOURSELF while parts of scripture are recited. It is 100% super duper ultra clear that the corporation paying for this and recording this BD is doing so because he is a true believer and sincerity is something in high value for BDs.
SPOILERS DONE

BDs are a cheap and dirty way to get very in your face with players that peoples lives and experiences and even their sincere beliefs are turned into experiences/commodities not just for corporations but for the population that buy them from corporations. Thus why CDPR picks very obviously morally wrong things.

[Tinuviel]

@jeshin Use the spoiler tag. It's right there.

***Spoiler***

click to show

Like this.

[Wizz]

@derp said in The Cyberpunk 2077 Snuff Chip Problem:

@kireek said in The Cyberpunk 2077 Snuff Chip Problem:

We reach the crux of the problem... and the original post. It isn't freaks that make the market, there are too few to really make such a detailed operation sustainable..

You're making an assumption, here. A pretty big one. Niche markets are still markets. It just means that you have less competition and can, in fact, charge higher prices, especially given the danger/effort involved in making it.
Yes, it absolutely can be sold to 'a couple of freaks' for very high prices, just like any other item in a niche market.

This.

Also, we see the producers and the buyers in-game, and go through the process of making such a purchase ourselves. The producers are scummy, desperate people and it's clear that this product -- even in a city where most illicit goods and services are easily available -- requires an extra level of precaution before you can even meet the distributor. And other buyers are portrayed as scumbags too.

They're not just average dumb, complacent consumers who are numbly stumbling into it. They're clammy desperate types who are taking a huge risk and absolutely knowing what they're getting into.

I really don't get why you think otherwise, other than you maybe weren't paying enough attention to the dialogue and all the steps and their implications. The main characters comment on almost every single aspect, too, expressing their disgust and contempt with literally everyone involved.

There is nothing insidious happening here. Nobody at CDPR is trying to BRAINWASH THE MASSES, that just...well.