The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc

Formula 409

When younger, I lacked the drive to be randy, so when Dad told me that 'boys are no good!', my response was 'well okay that's fine!' because I really had no reason to argue the point (sorry for the pun not sorry). I did not date until I was 19. At an early age (not abused [in regards to these topics]), I was both aware and able to observe that romance and sex were common in the world for other entities out there.

Those facts did not scare me, but there was a curiosity that I had about a world that included/involved everyone except apparently/obviously me (and so... I started to wonder whether or not I was an outlier because I was not like my peers who were gushing about all the celebrity/famous boiz and was not smooching, etcetera). Of course, I wanted to fit in (puns again), but I was not in any hurry (if that makes sense).

Eventually, I found MUs and something sweet started on my first one (before I ever had any personal RL XP). My 1st PC that I ever made was with a gentlemanly player whose loving character was a faithful man to mine for many years. I can still remember some incredibly kind things that they RPed (and still remember and can fondly quote, myself, even though it has been over a decade plus, but I still do)!

We were on an RP-enforced MUD, so the standard operating procedure was to not steer the IC happenings in an OOC way. I did have questions because I was so naive, and he patiently explained so much, and there will forever be a soft spot that I will always have for that guy! I really enjoyed that so much! After 8 years, an email came my way and told me that he had to go for Real Life (and I fully supported that: it was only right to).

It took a long time to find RP/partners as caring/honest as I need again, but then I eventually did. I know now that I am lucky whenever I do find them.

I waded through being Cullen-ed and even worse elsewhere but did not speak up until later (after others were affected). Maybe, I should have, but...

Out of pride to not be too OOC, I used to force myself to just deal with frustrating situations, because I had this chip on my shoulder that told me that I was not 'playing right' and was 'too meta' if I were to speak up OOCly.

Also, I wanted to figure out a better solution than simply leave because walking out all OOCly and not figuring out an IC way felt wrong to me, plus walking out on someone always felt too mean (until I became bitter because the madness would not stop).

Also, the way I was used to handling 'careless whispers' used to work: explaining to friends that she had a lover already and encouraging them to meet one another and to talk about it (all of us together) with the assumption that if people really were friends, then they would care to support the union of lovers, and then because lovers cared for each other, lovers would naturally support the fact that lover needed to have friends, so everyone figured it out and could still be friends without a lot of drama).

Maybe that only worked because my 1st partner was a gracious guy and WoT inspired? I really wish that everything could work out like the above more often, though. I think it would be the best way to be.

My 2nd decade of MUing went worse. Everything I tried to do got messy, and it felt like a constant tasering -- figuratively speaking -- all over the map.

I ended up feeling like I was tricked into situations that were not great, my PCs would speak up about their lover, people would not take her seriously, and then I and my chars ended up with so many issues that drove me wild.

It was not the sex (which is fun to write in a certain context for me because it is not something at which I am capable due to endometriosis), but it was the fact that sex as a component of the dynamic amidst matters of the heart and feeling like I had been caught up in betrayal from friends -- IC and OOC -- when I had no desire for all the hurts (but would always want to be loyal and would not have been that way to them). Yeah, I know I sound girly!

People who were claiming to be friends proved themselves not to be at least not like those I had known before who were supportive, and the 'lovers' ended up 180-degrees disrespectful and unnecessarily mean in many cases. Also, I witnessed a lot of women going through similar things (which was not something I was privy to previously: lucky I guess)?

I ended up in stressful situations, made concessions and felt forced to minimize what I wanted and felt terrible for cowering and not fighting (sometimes feeling like I was powerless but should have done so anyway), and felt like I was struggling to figure out what to do. Whether it was to bait/drop/run faster because people were not listening, or redirect interest to someone else who might like what they want to do and then figure out how to never have to ever deal with 'all that' ever again if at all possible.

Reporting on repeat seemed like it would be weak and did not feel like something that I could/should do, and one of my Cullens ended up in a position of power on a MU. I hunkered down and was not going to let them control my ability to play a game that I loved and was not going to report issues to them so they could rescue me and get me to trust them again.

Seriously, I was going crazy and could use some serious help, but I did not want to cause drama, either. It all felt like this huge Catch 22.

I was not used to that 'whole mess'. It felt like everybody went crazy and that I was about to, too. Thankfully, there are enough people out there who actually/finally cared to counter the bad/sad derping (which I appreciate)!

Good folks (like my first romantic TS partner and the last one) are out there, and so... That is why I play with hope. I cherish them and would probably do almost anything for them.

Something that I think might help most games is a system where people can feel comfortable to speak up in an OOC way (finally starting to do this now, because I am worn out). Also, one where the admins are not going to punish either side from the get-go but instead start off with a mediation/translation/meeting process.

Sometimes, understanding how people are feeling can make a difference (and reiterating it in different words). Sometimes, banhammering is not a great way (especially if the behavior can be addressed). Making sure that people can speak up (without a knee-jerk reaction suddenly happening) is a good idea. At times, banning does need to happen. It is a hard problem (sorry not sorry pun), but a little finesse can really go a long time, I mean... way. I hope! Okay!

il-volpe

@arkandel said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

what if the choice that takes a PC mostly off the table is OOC? For instance if you stop being active on my PC's spouse to play an alt with Theno's PC. Do I have the moral high ground to get pissed off?

Moral? Eeeh.

Is it likely that you'll be upset? Obviously. Imagine we meet at the gaming store for table-top. You stop showing up for our game, but I see you across the room, playing with Theno at another table. I was enjoying our game, you dropped it because you enjoy playing with Theno more than with me. I am going to have feels about that.

Hella

@il-volpe said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

@arkandel said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

what if the choice that takes a PC mostly off the table is OOC? For instance if you stop being active on my PC's spouse to play an alt with Theno's PC. Do I have the moral high ground to get pissed off?

You stop showing up for our game, but I see you across the room, playing with Theno at another table. I was enjoying our game, you dropped it because you enjoy playing with Theno more than with me. I am going to have feels about that.

@Thenomain is pretty great though. Could anyone really blame you?

More seriously, in the perfect world you'd be able to shrug it off and move on to something else, maybe make some compelling story from it. But in reality, as with most situations, it's usually more complicated than that.

il-volpe

@hella Yeah. My reaction tends not to be "Waaah, I wish you liked me as much as you like Theno," but "Waaah, I wish you liked me enough to invite me to join that table too," and I still feel that this is legit, especially if the "table" I was at is rendered empty or near-empty by your shifting to Theno-table.

Formula 409

@il-volpe 100-percent agreed!

Ghost

I think this is pretty necro'd and if you look back you can see some of my previous responses, but I still feel the same.

IC Romance/TS is often approached on an OOC level as "dating and cybersex", and I find the duality of it all to be very...interesting. Sure, some treat it just like "writing" but the desire for privacy, need to know OOC/RL details about the fellow writer, the number of personal explosions related to IC romance and/or "breakups", etc are all quite telling on a psychoanalysis level. It's very messy terrain and people can talk as big a game as they want that it's "just writing fiction" but I feel the actual truth is something southeast of that simple quote.

Devrex

@ghost In my experience it can be "just writing" but that takes conscious effort and communication of expectation. Conscious effort: reminding yourself, whenever emotions happen, that it's a game, it's a writing exercise, this is not a real relationship no matter how dear the characters are to me.

As for communication...

Things I like to talk about with a romance RP partner:

Expectations for RPing together
Expectations for getting into or out of the relationship
Where that player falls on the spectrum of 'let IC unfold without worrying about it' vs. 'let's talk about anything major OOC'
Standards on creating or manufacturing drama
Comfort levels or desire to do sexual writing together

At which point they'd hear from me:

We do not have to be joined at the hip; I want to RP with other people still and expect you will too, and that's a good thing as it gives us things to talk about. Thoughts?
The only thing required to stop this relationship is for one of us to want to stop RPing it, no explanation or warning needed or required on either side. This one is a non-negotiable for me. That said, working out what that looks like in-story is more than acceptable.
I mostly roll with the punches IC and react to things IC but getting the chance to OOCly discuss things like the fact that your PC is contemplating having an affair with another PC is a good thing. Thoughts?
I like conflict that has been brought about ICly but not manufactured drama...I prefer it if anything our characters fight about be something that happened ICly, not something you made up just now so we could 'not be bored.' IE, if Janet thought my character's behavior was bad at the party then by all means let's RP the discussion, but if you want to have Janet make up some behavior my PC did so Janet can scream and browbeat my character over it about it I'm not here for this (has happened). In addition, if we can't RP together for awhile I'd prefer you to act like things are just generally going well unless the last RP scene(s) indicate otherwise, not to start acting like my character is ignoring your character when we do not in fact RP every waking minute of their lives. Thoughts?
Can take or leave, I have been in romances where it's RP'd and I've been in romances where it's all FTB and I'm honestly chill either way, but I'd like to know what the expectations are. These days I lean a lot more towards FTB but I also understand that the adult content is sometimes very good story.

That way each person knows where the other stands and can come to some compromises about the ground rules for their unique writing experience. Ethics then become more a matter of "did you agree to our ground rules and then refuse to honor them" than a broad sweeping generalization.

Ghost

@devrex Fair enough! I don't think your stance is incorrect. I will say, however, that the number of instances where I was able to RP a "romance" and have it "just be writing" is far outnumbered by the times that it made me uncomfortable for a number of reasons. Off the top of my head I've...

Ended up chatting OOC/RL via texts/phone calls with someone I had an IC relationship with who sent inappropriate things to my phone. When I asked to take a break, they asked "don't I get a say in this?" and "angry about always being chosen second" (in this case, to my RL wife) and then proceeded to belittle me as a "user" and "manipulative person" to a large group of fellow MUers
Got angry at me for bringing something up via RP that was a trigger for their personal marriage issues
Husband would text me to get online to TS with his wife, who I later found out was a cuckold guy, and then when I tried to exit the IC relationship they banned me from the game
Once got VERY personal with me via pages and when I tried to escape the situation messaged me that "they identify with their character, and thus when I hurt their character (by ending the IC romance) I have hurt them, and therefore would be using IC means to hurt me.
Was harassed multiple times via pages about my kinks, wanting to see pictures of me, asking me personal details, all so that they could be included in RP
Pages being asked "what they did that was wrong" to not be taken as an IC romance, and then followed-up with pages about how they're lonely
Pages about how hot a scene was, touching themselves, etc. In many of these cases I'd then take a step back from the RP and it would then turn into some kind of OOC blowup
Pages angry about RPing with other players who they suspected to be "sluts" oocly via pages
Constant interrogations about who I am, who I've RPed with, who I played at which game, "NEEDING TO FEEL SAFE", not being observed, making sure scenes weren't logged, etc.

All in all, I think there's a certain population of people who are truly able to compartmentalize the difference between "simply writing an IC romance" and it being some sort of pseudonym for personal fantasy fulfillment. The end result felt more to me like a "pseudo-dating" environment where TS was called "simply writing" but often seemed much more personal and OOC-desire driven more than anything. I've met a LOT of bored husbands/wives whose home lives weren't fulfilling, and have dealt with a lot of uncomfortable attachment issues.

How I think it would look like if it were, in fact, simply "just writing".

Safety, jealousy, personal information, and needing to know a lot about the OOC writers involved wouldn't be nearly as important as "simple writing ability"
Privacy wouldn't be a concern at all, because it would be written FOR WRITING'S SAKE and thus okay for anyone to view. In fact, the logs would be posted where others could read for enjoyment's sake
People would discuss an outline for the scene idea, write it, then post it as a project, and not a multi-hour, repeated delve into kinks and emotional commitments
If a writing partner needed to cut out or their "character" cheated with another "character", there would be no anger. It would be taken as a literary direction and not as an attack on the player (or result in attacks on the player whose character strayed).

Anyway. It's just....interesting to me.

Ganymede

@ghost said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

IC Romance/TS is often approached on an OOC level as "dating and cybersex", and I find the duality of it all to be very...interesting.

So how did you approach our IC romance?

I mean, aside from laughing hysterically.

Devrex

@ghost Oh yeah, for sure there is a lot of crazy and I've had some similar experiences. Bad people suck and ruin it for everyone else, and obviously it's not easy to know which you're going to get. Some of the behavior on your list wouldn't really bug me as long as there was neither repeat or reprisal if I asked them to cut it out, but obviously some is just plum over the line.

I basically agree with everything on your list except posting every single log...I only do sexual RP with people I trust, even as a writing exercise there's some feeling of vulnerability there for me, and I don't necessarily want to share that with all 70 people on the game or whatever, cause I def. don't trust all 70 people.

I've also seen gamers be super mean about it. I don't really need color commentary on whether my X-rated writing is very good, or people jumping on Discord to read it aloud to each other in funny voices, or people trying to shame me over the RP. Hell, I have had people downright call me names over very non-sexual RP I've done, RP that had content warnings all over it and they didn't even have to read so that's one of the things I tend to be up front about...we can do it but this part doesn't go up for the consumption of all and sundry.

And yes, totally, 'I want to have an affair' is writing direction, it's totally fine in my books. I don't even require the discussion...but it also warms me when someone says 'hey, thinking about this, are you cool with it and what would you want out of it', which to me is basically right in line with treating me like a collaborative writing partner and a person.

Ghost

@ganymede You were fucking GREAT. We laughed, had good times, you were never WEIRD and it was just fun! 10/10 one of the cases where it was really just chill and perfect. Thanks for our RP being a great memory. 100% of the time it was all about fun and just writing fun shit, and when I needed to take a break you were "hope to see you again!" and not "MOTHERFUCKER YOU BEST SPLAIN THIS".

Also one of the last, if not my last foray, into writing that kind of stuff. When things went "BAD" I just felt....responsible. Like...I dont know who they were or what led things to get that level of weird, but clearly there was more going on in their RL/OOC side of things and I felt bad that I helped insert emotional issues into their RL. I felt weirdly responsible, so I kept away from that stuff a lot.

BloodAngel

@ghost OH so cause you t/s Ganny you are safe fucking got it.

Devrex

@bloodangel That's completely uncalled for and about 9 kinds of not okay.

Ghost

Yikes.

Also I should note: I'm not saying everyone needs to agree with my views on TS/Romance in some cases being treated like "pseudo-dating". If you disagree? COOL. I just feel this way and thus (up until my end of mushing) marked it as something to be very very very very careful about.

faraday

@ghost said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

I'm not saying everyone needs to agree with my views on TS/Romance in some cases being treated like "pseudo-dating". If you disagree? COOL. I just feel this way and thus (up until my end of mushing) marked it as something to be very very very very careful about.

As someone who sees IC romance as purely writing, I can emphatically agree with you that the majority of players I've interacted with do not see it the same way. So. Many. Boundary. Issues. Setting a shared expectation up front can help, but there are some who will push things even if you're super clear about no TS, no OOC bleed. It's annoying.

There are some good folks out there who can keep things separate. They're the best. The trouble is finding them.

hobos

This 'pseudo-dating' perspective is primarily why I really prefer not TS'ing. I'm really inclined to agree with Ghost's views here, based on my own experiences and reflections.

Recently I roleplayed an IC romance that was really great. It was like, started off work buddies, became enemies swiftly, started semi-tolerating each other but with a lot of peeves and digs, started growing some forbidden romance sorts of feelings (they were different races, but with a lot of repressed racist problems in a very racist society, one was a half-elf and one was a human) and finally all bubbled up into a situation where the other character was changing into her armor and my character followed and I engaged a FTB. They continued with this secret fling for a while, entertained thoughts of eloping, struggled with birth control, confessed to close friends, and eventually died for each other in a very tragic fashion. Later, after their deaths, I finally reached out to the player behind the character... and they confessed that they was sort of taken aback by that FTB, because they would typically write these things out. I explained how I felt about it and how in the past I'd had boundary issues and how I didn't like all the drama. They agreed, told me some really terrible and cringy stories about their own experiences (including someone who was very obviously typing one-handed and made every attempt to flaunt it), and we moved on easily as gaming friends.

So, you really don't need to TS to play out fun IC romantic writing. Cerebral, heartstring-pulling stories don't require graphic erotica, even if they are romantic stories. IC romance does not equal TS at all.

faraday

@hobos said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

IC romance does not equal TS at all.

This. My favorite IC romance started off with a random page that went something like: "So I don't do TS but I think it would be hilarious if our chars hooked up for a drunken one night stand and then regretted it." The other player also thought that would be hilarious. We had so much fun with it that the chars awkward-ed their way into dating. They eventually got married and dealt with a whole host of issues from infidelity to infertility. All without a bit of OOC drama or TS.

I wish that were the rule rather than the exception.

ZombieGenesis

I haven't read this thread through in its entirety but this is my take on IC romance and TS. This is my personal philosophy, mind you. Romance and sex are just forms of RP just like anything else. I partake in them to enjoy the scene just like I would combat or an action scene or whatever. I think romance and sex can lead to all kinds of fun drama to RP out(just look at nearly any TV show or movie).

It's one of the reasons I never understood why MU's always had a "do but don't show" policy when it came to TS. The policies always generally read the same; We know you do it, it's fine that you do it, but NEVER IN PUBLIC and never post a log! I think that, so long as it's properly marked, and people want to share it what's the harm?

I run a game right now where people share their TS logs, and often let people in to watch as the scene unfolds, or whatever. We use Ares which gives us the benefit of tagging the scene labels and warnings, which certainly helps. As I said, people should certainly know what they're getting into but I think that's true of any scene.

Now I understand there are nuances to this subject but that's my take. It's just RP. I make sure anyone I RP with understands that this is my stance on it. RP is RP, IC is IC, and has no bearing on OOC friendships or relationships any more than our characters fighting a duel to the death.

Formula 409

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Formula 409

@jeshin said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

The ethics of IC Romance and TS is all about managing expectations. If you're going to be 100% IC, you need to be 100% IC. If this means you're cheating and you have crazy hawt seches and have some hickies, you need to RP covering them up or they get spotted. If you're going to have OOC collab you need to be upfront. OOC collab means that you are writing a story together and just like writers in a meeting you're pitching ideas and discussing story threads. This includes any negative drama you want to explore. If you want to go some IC/OOC hybrid because you're chatting and coordinating playtimes and you banter a bit. You just need to be honest. Don't mislead your RP partner. If honesty leads to hurt feelings that sucks but you're not a creeper or abuser if you don't try and obscure or manipulate. You might be an asshole, but I think there is a fundamental difference between being an ass and victimizing your RP partners.

100%!