It hearkens back to some really obnoxious rationalizations I've heard for special slots and "needing" players to fill the lower ranks, which usually just turns out to be a cover for the staff and their buddies to have their own little power-fantasy sandbox where they can order everyone else around.
@Wizz Why? Because if the definition of the RP freedom needed is to alter the set story, which for me is only what is on screen, then I feel you are either very oversensitive to how something that is on the far side of the galaxy is affecting your RP, or you want to specifically alter that canon. I have little interest in catering to those approaches.
The entire Rebellion is not on that moon.
@Arkandel I go by what was shown. They managed to add into things without violating my expectations in both the Emperor's Hand(s), and the extra apprentices in The Force Unleashed. They also have years leading up to the destruction of Alderaan and after to play through. It would be lk e saying you are inspired to played WW2 because of Band of Brothers, but you can't in fact imagine anything else worth playing near/altering with your story then the plots of that show.
If folks wanna play the timeline where the Death Star I or II survived, and the Skywalkers were wiped out, or all turned to the Dark and rule theGalaxy and Father, Son, Daughter, Nieces and Nephews, go for it. Wanna do all Skywalkers one generation later as a mix of Star Wars and Birthright, great. I don't see the value of interrupting the heroic arc of a few canon characters to make the players feel special. If you can't play without supplanting Luke or Elsa, Elric or Lynn Minmei, Frodo or Lay de Winter, I don't see the point of trying to make that work for an entire MU* worth of players. They don't have the cinematic sized Force Point bank to make it happen.
I have a waggish sense of humor.
@Misadventure said:
@Wizz Why? Because if the definition of the RP freedom needed is to alter the set story, which for me is only what is on screen, then I feel you are either very oversensitive to how something that is on the far side of the galaxy is affecting your RP,
What are you even talking about? If you're playing this Star Wars game, you're not playing "on the far side of the Galaxy" from the plot. You're part of the First Order or the Resistance. AoA is not set in some backwater solar system, you're encouraged to app in with feature characters that are explicitly on-screen.
I don't know if they micro-manage the "canon plot" here the same way the game I remember did, but that one followed the same formula and it was that weird "The Canon Is Sacred And Inviolable" attitude that I found so weird.
If you're going to wind up on the Death Star just in the natural course of the game, why is it such a bazonkers idea that your actions could have some impact? I'm here to play a game of make-believe, not watch somebody masturbate about how much better they could have written the novelization of the script. If I wanted to watch A New Hope play out literally the same way it does in the movie, for example, I'd fucking watch A New Hope.
or you want to specifically alter that canon. I have little interest in catering to those approaches.
Great! Why?
I really don't see how in a WoD game, having someone run a scene that is clearly on rails is so universally reviled, but in a Star Wars game it's expected.
I am also strongly avoiding this one.
How can you strictly follow canon but also let people play FCs? Oh, right, by making them literally invincible and expanding your definition of 'canon' to include a lot more force-powered hate sex.
@wizz I answered the question already. If you are only speaking of this specific MU*, I'd say don't bother with playing through the story that's already established. Again, whole galaxy of action, with years of undefined events to play through. I think it is a poor choice to allow the canon character, in the canon events for RP.
Put another way: You are Luke. It's down to you, Biggs, and Wedge. You have time for one run on the exhaust port. What do you do differently that is such an amazing expression of your creativity? Do you demand Wedge stay with his injured ship? Spend your Force points to save Biggs somehow? Ignore the idea of using the Force when suggested? Maybe not spend any Force Points on making that shot? Turn on Vader to finish him now? Fly away to to fight another day? WHAT DO YOU DO THAT IS SO DAMN IMPORTANT? You've got how many years to RP whatever you like before the Battle of Hoth, or you could off Leia, let Han and Chewie go off with their money and not prove themselves, and so on. There is a story there that drew people, why alter it?
I cannot, in all seriousness, think of why I would let a player decide on the course of the entire setting that has drawn players in the first place. If I wanted an altered timeline, I would design it for its story value, announce it ahead of time, let players know that whatever will be different. I'd rather have players vote from offered choices and their own suggestions so design can matter for the long run, than hope the players will randomly prove that dice and their own designs will do anything coherent for everyone elses benefit without them being handheld constantly.
I do think playing the canon characters isn't a good idea. I do think allowing for more Force users is a good idea. If I was doing anything with Star Wars, I'd either change things up explicitly and with purpose, or find a place for my players to do their own thing, where they can affect the course of events, live or die by their own choices, and so on.
Perhaps it would help to realize that since this is a Shout thread, i don't feel required to restrict myself to this one games approach, but rather to address wider questions related to it AND other possible places.
I have a waggish sense of humor.
@Misadventure said:
Put another way: You are Luke. It's down to you, Biggs, and Wedge. You have time for one run on the exhaust port. What do you do differently that is such an amazing expression of your creativity?
I attack Sephiroth and - ooh, shite, you meant the OTHER Biggs and Wedge from A New Hope, nevermind.
[slowly backs out of thread, accidentally knocking over a vase and a lamp on the way out]
Sorry.
@Misadventure said:
@wizz I answered the question already. If you are only speaking of this specific MU*, I'd say don't bother with playing through the story that's already established. Again, whole galaxy of action, with years of undefined events to play through. I think it is a poor choice to allow the canon character, in the canon events for RP.
That's all I'm really railing against.
Put another way: You are Luke. It's down to you, Biggs, and Wedge. You have time for one run on the exhaust port. What do you do differently that is such an amazing expression of your creativity? Do you demand Wedge stay with his injured ship? Spend your Force points to save Biggs somehow? Ignore the idea of using the Force when suggested? Maybe not spend any Force Points on making that shot? Turn on Vader to finish him now? Fly away to to fight another day? WHAT DO YOU DO THAT IS SO DAMN IMPORTANT?
OH MY GOD THE POSSIBILITIES ARE ENDLESS, IT'S ALMOST LIKE IT'S UP TO US TO DO SOMETHING INTERESTING AND DIFFERENT AND PLAY OUT THE CONSEQUENCES, AND IT'S ALMOST LIKE THAT'S MORE INTERESTING TO ME BECAUSE I'VE ALREADY SEEN IT PLAYED OUT ONE WAY AND WE ARE PLAYING A GAME NOT WATCHING A MOVIE.
Edit: To use your hypothetical, what if you're Darth Vader in the trench and you roll a natural 20 or whatever, meaning according to the rules your shot just blew your son to smitheroons! HOLY SHIT EVERYTHING JUST-- no wait, Staff steps in and says "Yeah no, Luke's photon torpedoes make it, Vader you get knocked aside by the Millenium Falcon, OK GUYS LET'S MOVE ON TO EPISODE FIVE." Does that really not seem pretty asinine to you?
You've got how many years to RP whatever you like before the Battle of Hoth, or you could off Leia, let Han and Chewie go off with their money and not prove themselves, and so on. There is a story there that drew people, why alter it?
Because that story has already been told, how is it even remotely fun to just tell it again? That is what I was asking you, but you still aren't really answering and I feel like it's maybe because we're really on the same side of this argument and something is being lost in translation, so to speak.
I cannot, in all seriousness, think of why I would let a player decide on the course of the entire setting that has drawn players in the first place.
Because they're players, not an audience?
If I wanted an altered timeline, I would design it for its story value, announce it ahead of time, let players know that whatever will be different. I'd rather have players vote from offered choices and their own suggestions so design can matter for the long run, than hope the players will randomly prove that dice and their own designs will do anything coherent for everyone elses benefit without them being handheld constantly.
I do think playing the canon characters isn't a good idea. I do think allowing for more Force users is a good idea. If I was doing anything with Star Wars, I'd either change things up explicitly and with purpose, or find a place for my players to do their own thing, where they can affect the course of events, live or die by their own choices, and so on.
Yeah, we're on the same page for the most part.
Perhaps it would help to realize that since this is a Shout thread, i don't feel required to restrict myself to this one games approach, but rather to address wider questions related to it AND other possible places.
Again I don't think we're really arguing two separate ideas here, but there's still something that I don't think is coming across to me very clearly. If you were going to create a Star Wars game where there is inherently an element of chance in the system you're using and explicitly set the plot to occur alongside the events of the movies, what is it that drives you so bonkers about the idea of something different happening? I would think that's a feature, not a bug, to borrow our favorite phrase here.
@Wizz said:
explicitly set the plot to occur alongside the events of the movies
I wouldn't do this. I would approach this like some approach time travel. You can be near events, but the end result will be the same. Better, you'll be somewhere else, where your stakes can matter to you and not affect the core canon at all.
Why do I object so much? Because Star Wars, a cinematic heroic arc, depends on an endless string of events to arrive where they do, with massive stakes. I don't care if Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen die, or have to go into hiding, or were Vaders hidden babysitters and the bodies were locals meant to disguise their withdrawal. That has as little or as much at stake as you wish to create.
However, trying to lay out a game that will try to play through the Battle of Yavin is foolhardy. Do you give everyone middle of the road rolls, so its pure luck if they manage to defeat the Deathstar? Do you give them awesome stats/Force Points so that they recreate it at will? Either you basically roll a a die and hope for that natural 20, or you are just fooling yourself. Why so binary an evaluation? Because, either you destroy the Death Star in time, or you don't. Using a random system along the lines of D20/D&D etc, with movement rates, a map your players sorta know, and a zillion random rolls, I am 95% certain it will always end the Rebellion. The most exciting option there is not "Hey look I didn't do as I said I would and cover my squadron, I blew up an extra gun tower and now there is no Rebellion", but at best the end of the Death Star and the Rebellion.
It's such a binary for the entire setting. if you want the Rebellion to be trashed and take out some/most/all the canon characters, I see that better as a choice of story background, not some random rolls and effectively random player decisions. Unlike WW2, that particular moment is massively personal with galactic consequences, and no way to make a satisfying game out of it. Either you're going to fail, or you've been given your successes, and now everyone else has to deal with your personal choices as the basis of the entire thing they came to play through.
How is one players decisions backed by random dice and a system stacked either for failure or success better than one Staffers decisions?
I am all for player created content and consequences. I am part of the camp who doesn't think we should come to an agreement about what will happen, but I do favor looking at things above the round by round random dice rolls to create a coherent direction. That's the point of game design, a coherent direction, and since I want dozens of players to spend their time playing in and around and about these events, I'd prefer it have a direction too.
I have a waggish sense of humor.
Honestly if you want to run a Star Wars game where the players get to be movers and shakers and things do not explicitly follow the story of the films? Having the Deathstar blow up Yavin but then be destroyed might be a great way to do it,. Argue that a good proportion of the rebels do manage to evacuate beforehand and that whilst that was their main base they have cells/agents all over the place, plus the vast majority of their actual war fighting power came from those who joined them post Yavin in the wake of the Deathstar's destruction. Does that even change much of anything? Their resources in The Empire Strikes Back were obviously far larger than those they had in A New Hope and Yavin was no longer actually important to them. Basically you just have the canonical initial high command of the rebellion dead and leave the scene open for new guys.
@Misadventure said:
@Wizz said:
explicitly set the plot to occur alongside the events of the movies
I wouldn't do this. I would approach this like some approach time travel. You can be near events, but the end result will be the same. Better, you'll be somewhere else, where your stakes can matter to you and not affect the core canon at all.
You are literally answering my question with the thing I am questioning, every single time. You keep saying "I would like a game where players can do their own thing but the story remains the same," and I ask, "WHY should that be?" And your answer is, "I would like a game where players can do their own thing but the story remains the same." WHY GODDAMN IT WHY IS IT SO IMPORTANT ANSWER MY QUESTION
Why do I object so much? Because Star Wars, a cinematic heroic arc, depends on and endless string of events to arrive where they do, with massive stakes. I don't care if Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen die, or have to go into hiding, or were Vaders hidden babysitters and the bodies were locals meant to disguise their withdrawal. That has as little or as much at stake as you wish to create.
However, trying to lay out a game that will try to play through the Battle of Yavin is foolhardy. Do you give everyone middle of the road rolls, so its pure luck if they manage to defeat the Deathstar? Do you give them awesome stats/Force Points so that they recreate it at will? Either you basically roll a a die and hope for that natural 20, or you are just fooling yourself. Why so binary an evaluation? Because, either you destroy the Death Star in time, or you don't.
That's the point, that there's a choice and a possibility for change. That's why we're playing a game and, for the zillionth time, not watching the movie. I feel like we're going in circles here.
Using a random system along the lines of D20/D&D etc, with movement rates, a map your players sorta know, and a zillion random rolls, I am 95% certain it will always end the Rebellion. The most exciting option there is not "Hey look I didn't do as I said I would and cover my squadron, I blew up and extra gun tower and now there is no Rebellion", but at best the end of the Death Star and the Rebellion.
But it isn't a binary either/or. Like you said, for the story to reach the same conclusion there is an endless sequence of events, all of which are open to interpretation on a game, more so because you're involving a group of inventive collaborative storytellers instead of just one person and that exponentially multiplies the possibilities. That's what's fun about it, the discovery.
It's such a binary for the entire setting. if you want the Rebellion to be trashed and take out some/most/all the canon characters, I see that better as a choice of story background, not some random rolls and effectively random player decisions. Unlike WW2, that particular moment is massively personal with galactic consequences, and no way to make a satisfying game out of it.
Again, that's a massive assumption on your part, and I don't follow your logical leap at all. I think people can come up with fun and inventive things and work together on them without some condescending "director's touch," I've seen it happen. Even when it wasn't an outcome I personally wanted, I enjoyed the process. It seems like you don't enjoy the chaos of this medium, but I do? I don't know.
Either you're going to fail, or you've been given your successes, and now everyone else has to deal with your personal choices as the basis of the entire thing they came to play through.
Again, I don't follow your train of thought here. Maybe using the Battle of Yavin is a pretty dramatic example, but doesn't that happen anyway in any RP scenario? It's all about action-reaction. sometimes with enormous stakes. Either you find that fun or you don't.
How is one players decisions backed by random dice and a system stacked either for failure or success better than one Staffers decisions?
Because one option means the outcome is not entirely in the player's control, and in theory any and all players could potentially be in that same position and free to roll those dice, and the other option is arbitrary Staff fiat where one person's word is canon for everybody's stories, every time, period. Again, I ask you, how is that fun? In my opinion, even the illusion of choice and consequence means I'm playing a better game.
I am all for player created content and consequences. I am part of the camp who doesn't think we should come to an agreement about what will happen, but I do favor looking at things above the round by round random dice rolls to create a coherent direction. That's the point of game design, a coherent direction, and since I want dozens of players to spend their time playing in and around and about these events, I'd prefer it have a direction too.
And it still can. That's the whole point of role playing, it's not set in stone. You can have a larger direction but to me the mark of a good GM/ST/whatever is to be ready to roll with the punches, even if sometimes that means the players jump the rails and do something unexpected. It's maybe arguable that in a MU* environment not everyone (or anyone) is in it just for the fun of everybody and that some players are going to do stupid or selfish things, or things that don't make sense to you or your idea of what the story should be, but you still have more control than they do and can tug the reins when it seems like things are going to get too out of hand. I just don't like the idea that Staff are so worried about their precious vision that that little tug becomes a vicious beat-down until the story is hammered back into what they wanted it to be. For fuck's sake, go write a book if that's what you want.
Shortest version: lay out how you will game-ify this to meet the needs of more than the one player who massively gets to decide what happens.
Tell me what game rules will not fall extremely to one side or the other if you play round by round, roll by roll, for this one, hugely important to the setting event. Remember, those players will be anywhere they want to be, on a moon sized map. They have 15 minutes. It has to go with the rolls. It has to go with their choices of insertion point and timing.
Or just go ahead and make the place, and play through the movie events. Hope ... what... where to start? "As an engineer, i min max my troubleshooting skills and make the exhaust port a corkscrew cuz heat don't care. about straight lines." Lets hope the droids make it through that hallway. Let's hope the escape pod isn't vaporized. And so on. (The Battle of Yavin IS a great binary because either the Rebellion there survives, or it does not. Then add in which characters make it, and if the Death Star does.) And let's hope that three dozen players think this is so cool that some random dice decided if anything close to the Star Wars story happened for the Star Wars MU* they want to spend time on. Good luck with that. You just can't make a set of game choices that will maintain authority to decide something that big via simulation minutia. (Never tell me the odds.")
I'll stick with avoiding the canon story events first hand.
If none of that makes sense, then don't worry about it. I didn't design the game in question, and I am fairly sure no one wants to play in any of the alternate settings I have mentioned. Also, please don't read my personal feelings or attitude into things, and I will do the same for you. If I am trying to be condescending, I will let you know. If you hear condescending without it being sent, adjust your reception.
And IS the whole point of RPing getting to replay through a specific story, a specific scene from one of dozens of stories in a place with thousands of stories possible? Is that the whole point? I don't think so.
ETA: Oh, for what I think is a really good example of working with canon material and letting players still have their own fate, look at Pendragon. Plenty of discussion on whether to use what parts of the Arthurian stories in your adventures. Also plenty of mechanics to back up that the realy really hard tasks are indeed really really hard to do unless you are completely stacked to do well at them. Think multiple checks to pass an evening, and have you have to make all checks across three evenings. Good stuff to think about).
I have a waggish sense of humor.
@Misadventure said:
Shortest version: lay out how you will game-ify this to meet the needs of more than the one player who massively gets to decide what happens.
Tell me what game rules will not fall extremely to one side or the other if you play round by round, roll by roll, for this one, hugely important to the setting event. Remember, those players will be anywhere they want to be, on a moon sized map. They have 15 minutes. It has to go with the rolls. It has to go with their choices of insertion point and timing.
You're focusing a little too much on the "one player massively gets to decide what happens" dilemma and that's actually exactly my point. The Battle of Yavin scenario as portrayed in the movie is actually a terrible example of how this would work well, you're right, because there are already several "givens that wouldn't be" in my ideal game. It's a given that Luke is the only Rebel character remaining in the trench, or that the trench is even the approach the Rebellion takes -- why not set up an infiltration scenario instead, if it bothers you to set the stakes so high and balance them all on one player? My larger point is, you should be able to run the Battle of Yavin however the hell you want, it shouldn't matter that it was a single-file run down a trench in the movie. Maybe you wouldn't get the same nail-biting-down-to-the-wire conclusion to team play it like that, but the freedom of choice is again what I care about.
Or just go ahead and make the place, and play through the movie events. Hope ... what... where to start? "As an engineer, i min max my troubleshooting skills and make the exhaust port a corkscrew cuz heat don't care. about straight lines." Lets hope the droids make it through that hallway. Let's hope the escape pod isn't vaporized. And so on. (The Battle of Yavin IS a great binary because either the Rebellion there survives, or it does not. Then add in which characters make it, and if the Death Star does.) And let's hope that three dozen players think this is so cool that some random dice decided if anything close to the Star Wars story happened for the Star Wars MU* they want to spend time on.
This is what we keep coming back to and where our main conflict seems to be. I don't want to spend time on a Star Wars game to see the "Star Wars story" happen. I want to spend time on a Star Wars game to play in the Star Wars universe and tell stories there. It's like was mentioned in another thread, your primary reason to make a derivative game should be that the setting is expansive enough to survive a little tramping around in, not because you want to recreate the plot.
And I think the Star Wars universe is big and sturdy enough to survive the Empire crushing the Rebellion, or the Emperor dying on the first Death Star and the Empire breaking down into factions, or the Rebellion hijacking the Death Star and turning it around on the Empire, or whatever wacky thing. The setting and universe still have rules that would make the game an interesting place to be.
Good luck with that. You just can't make a set of game choices that will maintain authority to decide something that big via simulation minutia. (Never tell me the odds.")
Again, I still don't think you're giving me a compelling argument. You wouldn't like the story to diverge is all I'm getting from this.
I'll stick with avoiding the canon story events first hand.
If none of that makes sense, then don't worry about it. I didn't design the game in question, and I am fairly sure no one wants to play in any of the alternate settings I have mentioned.
That's actually not true for me, I remember several potential Star Wars games actually set in either backwater parts of the galaxy or vaguely-defined periods of galactic history that I think would have been a blast to play, had they materialized. I don't know why they never really got past the planning stages and I assume it was just for the normal reasons some games in development fall apart, rather than a lack of interest.
Also, please don't read my personal feelings or attitude into things, and I will do the same for you. If I am trying to be condescending, I will let you know. If you hear condescending without it being sent, adjust your reception.
Will do, my apologies.
And IS the whole point of RPing getting to replay through a specific story, a specific scene from one of dozens of stories in a place with thousands of stories possible? Is that the whole point? I don't think so.
That's not what I was saying it was?
ETA: Oh, for what I think is a really good example of working with canon material and letting players still have their own fate, look at Pendragon. Plenty of discussion on whether to use what parts of the Arthurian stories in your adventures. Also plenty of mechanics to back up that the realy really hard tasks are indeed really really hard to do unless you are completely stacked to do well at them. Think multiple checks to pass an evening, and have you have to make all checks across three evenings. Good stuff to think about).
I'll have to look at the system!
There's also the extremely simple 'we use the canon of X up until point Y, from there the advancement from there is up to the players'.
@Misadventure said:
Also, please don't read my personal feelings or attitude into things, and I will do the same for you. If I am trying to be condescending, I will let you know. If you hear condescending without it being sent, adjust your reception.
This is both dumb and grossly self-unaware. I'm not even a part of this discussion and I read condescension in the way you express yourself. And in fact, telling him he has to "adjust his reception" if he feels you're being condescending is pretty condescending. Maybe if someone feels you're being condescending, you should adjust your emission. We may like to think we're in complete control of how we come off in text and even face-to-face, but we're not.
At this point we're running in circles. We do not agree on one thing: playing through movies events. I say not ever, and that you can't set it up to go anywhere without making decisions that decide where it will go before hand, save that it could spiral off into mediocrity. (BTW, I suddenly though hey you could use the Blades in the Darkness RPG, with its countdown clocks for things that are going to happen in the Star Wars conflicts (a planet blows up, the plans get the attention of the imperium, the plans get to the Rebellion, etc)(double parens, yay!)).
Best starting point for the Star Wars Death Star I threat would be after every engineer fails to notice their glaring mistake (that rebels can spot in days/hours, and an imperial combat officer can spot inside 15 minutes while "under fire"), and the Death Star has some critical weakness that a daring plan can take advantage of.
Period.
Don't give it to Leia. Don't have that Star Destroyer know where that data is. Without the canon characters, well sure the rebellion has no way to defeat the station, but the Imperials also don't know where the rebel base is ("This was too easy").
There you go.
If you like I can give you the stats for the death star and the attack and defense forces, and the difficulty of the shots being taken and someone can game it out to see how much choice there is, and how much the dice help. Everyone loves the D6 Star Wars rules, and if not the new ones could be used.
I have a waggish sense of humor.
@Coin So how far do we take this beyond stating "I'm not trying to be condescending"?
Am I lying? Am I unaware of my own intentions? If I say something in a way I don't feel is condescending, what more can I do than say "No condescension intended"? There was even a please. Once that has been said, either you decide I am a liar, or you'll have to re-read my words without the assumed condescension.
Here is a real guide to any level of disdain or dislike I have for things on a forum: I do not reply any longer. I scroll on by. Mind, that can also be frustration, boredom, lack of focus. Even hyperbole is a method of trying to communicate.
i care about solving problems. I do not care at all for putting people "in their place" or feeling better than them. I care about communicating my thoughts, concerns, ideas, criticisms. That's it.
Even this reply, if I thought arguing how to convey intent online, or discuss it with you, or in public, was not worthwhile, I just wouldn't. I even go so far as to assume you feel the same way, but I don't bet on it, cuz I can't read your mind from here.
At some point I may return and reread Wizz's post and see if I have anything else I think might bridge our mutual understanding gap, if there is one even. It may come down to taste, and what one has optimism for, which I don't think anyone either of us wish to attack in the least.
I have a waggish sense of humor.
@Misadventure said:
@Coin So how far do we take this beyond stating "I'm not trying to be condescending"?
Am I lying? Am I unaware of my own intentions? If I say something in a way I don't feel is condescending, what more can I do than say "No condescension intended"?
That's all it takes, and it can be as civil as that:
"You thought I was being condescending there, that's not what I intended."
"OK, I misunderstood."
You just came off pretty defensive when you said you weren't being condescending, which is understandable, but that's what Coin was responding to. Like he said, it's easy to forget how much gets lost in translation. You are aware of your intentions when writing something, but this isn't a face-to-face conversation and I'm lacking cues like tone of voice or expression, really subtle things that let me know what is safe to assume. Nobody is accusing you of lying. But we cleared it up man, no worries.
So.... Anyone able to get in touch with Tanika? And/or split the thread into a Star Wars gripe thing?
It hearkens back to some really obnoxious rationalizations I've heard for special slots and "needing" players to fill the lower ranks, which usually just turns out to be a cover for the staff and their buddies to have their own little power-fantasy sandbox where they can order everyone else around.
