That article makes me very sad. It's reflective of my own experience in tabletop and at conventions (one of the reasons why once I got into MUSHing I didn't look back). I hope the author is my age, but I can believe the LEO's reactions as well, to be honest, though I kind of hoped that they'd gotten a little better too. I have seen the misogynistic hatred and rape threats directed at females with opinions on games or fandom first hand--when they were directed at one of my children. (She's no longer that interested in game design or writing, and part of me is full of rage over that, and another more guilty part is fucking relieved.)
I'm sure people reject that things are "that bad" and "oh it's just the bad apples". I've met a lot of great people male and female in the TT/Con world, but you know--the rotten apples are virulently rotten, and I don't think that they're taken as seriously as they should be (I'd like to hope this is changing). But in my experience this article isn't far off the mark.
@Misadventure said:
http://latining.tumblr.com/post/141567276944/tabletop-gaming-has-a-white-male-terrorism-problem
Comments?
After reading that... I smell large amounts of bullshit.
@Tyche said:
@Misadventure said:
http://latining.tumblr.com/post/141567276944/tabletop-gaming-has-a-white-male-terrorism-problem
Comments?
After reading that... I smell large amounts of bullshit.
At least she needs to learn to write a good journalistic piece. I don't doubt some or all of it is true, but it's generally not engaging. Too much scare tactic, but if someone is already scared I would understand the tone being off.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
@Thenomain It's not a journalistic piece, though. It's someone's personal blog speaking about their personal experience.
@Tyche I dislike the way it's written, but I've seen and experienced some of what she writes about myself and fortunately I had a good group who took a stand and kicked out assholes who do that crap so it's not all bullshit.
She's also right about the way cops treat the victims in a lot of cases. My own history is proof that cops can, and will, refuse to file a report about rape without some physical evidence.
Maybe that's changed in the past twenty years, but I doubt it, if anything my faith in police is at an all time low in this day and age.
@Tyche I am very, very curious to know exactly what parts you think are bullshit.
@Misadventure said:
http://latining.tumblr.com/post/141567276944/tabletop-gaming-has-a-white-male-terrorism-problem
Comments?
I have mixed feelings, I think. While my experiences have been different from hers, that doesn't mean she's being untruthful in any way. Mostly, I don't like playing with other people I don't know, so my engagement in the community is very limited.
Because my engagement is limited, I don't see Gamergate and SadPuppies the same way many critics of them do, which is fine.
Mostly, I feel sad and angry that she's had these experiences. No one should feel as though they're at risk of bodily harm just because they walk into a store.
It depresses me and I do not see any reason to doubt its accuracy, even if I hope that it was not recent. Not sure it isn't though. Tabletop is still one of the most niche gaming there is, and I would be surprised if any of us on this forum could NOT name at least one genuinely fucked up personality they had met in MUs or tabletop type gaming (HI REX). Which isn't even counting the wildly inappropriate behavior of terrible dumbasses in this hobby who do not know they are being painfully offensive and basically lack fundamental social skills in general.
That doesn't excuse their behavior or make it in any way okay, but I think you have to draw a distinction between the kids (and man-children, which is more common) who do not know any better and really could benefit from a talk, and the really vile ones.
@Roz said:
@Thenomain It's not a journalistic piece, though. It's someone's personal blog speaking about their personal experience.
It's written to evoke a reaction, whether or not this was deliberate. At that goal, it's not very good, and to me it reads as trying too hard. For that, I can see people reading it as disingenuous, and the trolls and haters will grab onto that and throttle it, also to evoke a reaction.
The gaming store I go to has a large number of female regulars, the majority of regular players on the days I'm there are Asian, and most of our fights rarely are beyond which rules override which other rules.
Then again maybe my experience is not standard.
There are parts that, admittedly, seem completely the result of over-exaggeration and/or pure fabrication... I don't want to marginalize the message, because it's a valid one, but yeah... Too much scare tactic. Personally, I find it very, very difficult to believe that a 13 year old girl not only gets openly told by a shopkeeper "old enough to bleed, old enough to breed", but then that a whole cadre of cronies would start chanting it like a mantra. Not unless the store just openly says "Pedophile Comics and Games" on the window. There's simply too many people, of all genders, who are very sensitive/hostile to the very thought of sexually abusing minors. Plus, it just reeks of caricature, not character, if that makes sense.
The other thing is the example of "It's 2007, 2008, 2009" etc. etc. If this happened even two years in a row, why would you ever, ever go back to that convention? I understand that this question is very close to "Well, you shouldn't do this, unless you expect that" or something, but it's not. This is a question of "What person in their right mind continues to go back into a situation that repeatedly proves to be traumatic, knowing what will happen?" because... I can't think of a one. Not without going into the patterns of psychological behavior that surrounds chronic victims, at least. This person doesn't read as that type, though, since they truly seem to hold the viewpoint that they're worth more than the abuse they suffer. The type of people who continue to go back to abusive relationships do not think that way.
But, even if the article is poorly written and exaggerated or even fabricated, in part or in entirety, there is a lot of truth to it, too. Gaming has traditionally been a boys' club, in the tabletop world, and it hasn't progressed to be inclusive gracefully by any stretch of the word. I have worked in one of the largest and most established comic/games/hobby retail chains in the US, and I've tabletop gamed all over this country with a number of folks and at a number of stores, conventions, and etc. I have never actually witnessed any example of the extreme actions presented in this editorial. I'm not saying that they don't happen. Not by a long shot. I have, however, seen female gamers being dismissed and otherwise made to feel inferior. Mostly just through snarky, holier than thou attitudes and comments. I've seen girls be ignored. I've seen girls being given undue amounts of attention (which is equally problematic), and all, but I've never seen an ass slap and then forced isolation when standing up about it. I think that we male gamers (or us male, white, hetero gamers) need to grow the fuck up, most of the time with these attitudes. Though, admittedly, I will say I have never once seen any bias against race or sexuality at a gaming table. Of any sort. I'm certain that it happens. There's the bigots in every culture, but I think that this sort of prejudice might be more rare than sexism.
What are your thoughts? Is my experience an altogether uniquely better one, or does it seem fairly standard?
@ShelBeast I don't think all those things happened to /one/ person, I think they are bits and pieces of stories that happened to a lot of people that they have spoken to.
In that way it is poorly written and as I said, I don't like the way it is written because it is written in a way that is intended to shock, but it fails and oversaturates(sp) the message to the point where it almost makes one want to discount on general principle.
The other thing is that sometimes things happen, and we react to them in ways that didn't really happen that way.
Maybe some guy thought it was funny or was crude or was insulting, or was a legitimate pedobear. Maybe a couple people laughed, but the whole tone of the memory was set by that /one/ thing happening, that one guy said that and everything else was just /wrong/ from that point on and it /felt/ like everyone was being like that so that's what she remembers.
It's hard to explain to someone who has never experienced that kind of thing in ways that make sense in some ways.
It's like when we get that one piece of bad horrifying news while we were at some place cool, or having a good time, or just a normal time and that bad thing makes it so /everything/ associated with that moment becomes bad, even if it actually wasn't.
However, these things /do/ happen. Most probably not all to the same person, but to multiple women, multiple people, more often than one might think.
It is easy to think it's all bullshit, until it happens to you or someone close to you.
It's interesting that people immediately jump to call "bullshit". And by interesting, I mean completely typical.
@Kanye-Qwest I wouldn't call it bullshit - although it's weird all those things kept happening to the one person who kept going back. What I would say is that in all of my time gaming I've never seen girls treated like that at all, and even more so as openly as that article.
If it was written decades ago? I could kinda sorta see it. But a barely-teen girl being told she's old enough to breed in a public space less than 7-8 years ago? I've never been anywhere that would have gone well, although the truth is I haven't been everywhere. Anywhere I could name such actions (and the assumption is it was recurring and not a very isolated one-time incident) would have brought down such a shitstorm on the store owner it wouldn't even be funny.
@Arkandel said:
@Kanye-Qwest What I would say is that in all of my time gaming I've never seen girls treated like that at all, and even more so as openly as that article.
Bully for you. You realize you're saying if a behavior isn't something you have noticed, it's unlikely to be happening? You seem like a smart and reasonable person, surely I don't have to explain the flaw in that logic.
Your experience does not in any way, shape, or form dictate another person's experience, and to my original point - the assumption that something didn't happen because you didn't see it is a large part of the problem.
Whether or not all the things described in that article happened to the author, all the things described in that article do happen. It behooves us as human beings to let conversations about them happen, too.
Not directing this link to anyone in particular but every so often something comes up that puts me in mind of this particular site.
@Kanye-Qwest said:
@Arkandel said:
@Kanye-Qwest What I would say is that in all of my time gaming I've never seen girls treated like that at all, and even more so as openly as that article.
Bully for you. You realize you're saying if a behavior isn't something you have noticed, it's unlikely to be happening? You seem like a smart and reasonable person, surely I don't have to explain the flaw in that logic.
I can only attest to what I have personally witnessed. It doesn't mean what I haven't seen doesn't happen, that would indeed be a fallacy, but for instance ... we have a sizable gamer community right here on the forum. What have you seen and perceived? As to why that's important, keep reading.
Your experience does not in any way, shape, or form dictate another person's experience, and to my original point - the assumption that something didn't happen because you didn't see it is a large part of the problem.
I am not disputing things like that happen. But are you going to say reports of them not happening should be silenced? If nothing else that could indicate the scale of sexual harassment within a community - whether, in other words, such behavior is typical or isolated. If on the other hand some of us - especially of the female persuasion - have then it would be an indication of the opposite.
We are a small sample but not necessarily tiny. I'd be interested in hearing more about it.
Whether or not all the things described in that article happened to the author, all the things described in that article do happen. It behooves us as human beings to let conversations about them happen, too.
I have no issue with the conversation happening - it should, in fact. I do have an issue however if someone lied about it in an article by saying it happened to them if it didn't. It distracts and detracts from harassment, allowing doubt to be cast on every report - do I need to explain why one person misrepresenting the truth in an overt fashion can cheapen true reports of actual incidents happening to others? If nothing else it gives an excuse to exactly the kinds of people who shouldn't have any to roll their eyes and look elsewhere.
@ShelBeast said:
I think that we male gamers (or us male, white, hetero gamers) need to grow the fuck up, most of the time with these attitudes.
I think you male, white, hetero gamers should start doing this by actively calling out shitheads like this.
While I realize a good number of male, white, hetero gamers are broken due to circumstances beyond their control, we expect children and young adults to behave better. Just because you elect not to use proper hygiene or socialization techniques does not relieve you of the obligation to obey social order, as dictated by law. Escaping to fantasy realms does not mean you can employ a fantasy realm's rules to reality.
I have caught wind of and seen bad behavior, and it was all I could do to not put my foot down on someone's neck for it. Thankfully, he apologized profusely after I kicked the chair out from under him.
Trust me, when/if I see poor behavior directed at anyone at a gaming event, I call it out and/or ask the person to leave, depending on the severity of the scenario. I have a reputation around the gaming stores I worked at in STL for coming down hard on players or whole groups (in a handful of instances) just for being dismissive and cliquish. Because of that, I turned our Wednesday gaming nights from a collection of a few small, isolated groups into a night that hosts full tables, that include women, children, and families, and even got one notoriously cliquey "elite" group to wind up running said tables.
The point of my posting was never that "I don't see it, therefore it's not happening", nor was it "It's not as bad as this person is making it out, so whatever". It was "These are problems, sure, but it does no one any good to inflate things to extremes, in order to bring about resolution". In the end, there can never be any peace or understanding as long as one side continues to commit problematic behavior and thinks it's alright or even "cool", and the other side agitates/inflates/exaggerates to make it out like it's an all consuming, ever present threat that ALL members of the group are guilty of or compliant with.
I didn't mean to accuse you of doing nothing.
But, as Orwell suggests, people sleep better at night knowing that there are people willing to resort to violence to ensure that.
That adage is especially apt here.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
@Tyche said:
@Misadventure said:
http://latining.tumblr.com/post/141567276944/tabletop-gaming-has-a-white-male-terrorism-problem
Comments?
After reading that... I smell large amounts of bullshit.
At least she needs to learn to write a good journalistic piece. I don't doubt some or all of it is true, but it's generally not engaging. Too much scare tactic, but if someone is already scared I would understand the tone being off.
