Flights 'n Tights MUX

TiredEwok

I am not outraged at all, nope. I am all for people doing what they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. I just was kind of scratching my head over how it seemed like they were wanting to be welcoming and inclusive when it didn't really feel like they were being the latter considering the very limited role female characters are allowed to assume although maybe it's just a case of me not understanding.

silentsophia

I think it was kind of awkward for Ixiokai to start a discussion or complain in the ad thread, but it happened and so here we are.

Sunny

Wait, so we're not supposed to put feedback in ad threads anymore?

silentsophia

@Sunny I don't know. Feedback's okay, but I thought it was more of a discussion that veered off into gays in comics.

surreality

@silentsophia To be fair, that was referenced in the ad, as part of the reason for the game to exist.

Which makes sense considering the way the community used to react, rightly or wrongly, to the kind of interpretations people want to play there (and wanted to play enough elsewhere that having a place dedicated to it does fill a need/have a niche with genuine interest/etc.) around the time the game was created.

Pretty much any 'adult' game is going to have an element of fetish material in it. That's, often, kinda the actual point. So I don't personally see that as a big deal; I take that as a given, and then play there or not like I would anywhere else.

By the same token, if someone made a game that fetishized, uh, green-haired short round busty artist chicks with a portrayal I personally found offensive, I'd probably be speaking up about it. (OK, I might not bother, but I would also not feel I had to keep silent about expressing my discomfort.)

I always got the impression random ad hominem crap was unwelcome in ad threads, but crit of the game was fair play. I could be wrong, though.

Thenomain

@Sunny said in Flights 'n Tights MUX:

I don't really think 3 downvotes is particularly hammering.

It was four, before even the first three comments were posted, which is pretty damning.

surreality

@Thenomain Meh. And we did have four forum trolls who lurved LGBT-baiting in particular...

Thenomain

@surreality said in Flights 'n Tights MUX:

@Thenomain Meh. And we did have four forum trolls who lurved LGBT-baiting in particular...

And that was considered hammering, too.

Okay, so maybe "hammering" is causing some people's pedantic attacks to flare up, but there is a general argument going on here (a different one, not just "this is mean"/"nuh-uh!") which was not created by the initial post or the initial poster.

silentsophia

I also could be wrong. It just felt awkward to have a combo of things happen, I guess.

Hushicho

Wow.

So I posted this ad a few weeks ago on the suggestion of a friend who thought it would be great to bring in some new players. We've been trying to get our small but friendly community active again, and summer's usually a great time to welcome new players who have a little more time to settle in to a MU* community or even learn how to play a MU*.

I come back here to check and see how it's going and just get...all this hate for something the first reply on my topic decides to bring up, because of their own issues and assumptions. That's pretty amazing. And then we have people jumping in -- not taking the time to understand -- and assuming a bunch of tumblr-level stuff about us.

If you weren't aware, we do not care what biological sex, gender, or gender identity any player is. All we are is a game for male characters as PCs. If you find that "creepy", then move right along. It is not a game for you. But I'd appreciate you not trying to insult my game and the community there by assuming a huge amount of things about a game that is clearly not your thing.

Second, we have more than just superhero worlds, and there's a lot of fun to be had. But if you want to point at the superhero stuff...it's pretty homoerotic in its purest form, just saying.

Third, there's really no end of games I could name over the years and now that either welcome women of all kinds, but there's a reason why versatile bisexual women are often called "unicorns". The one or two games that have ever welcomed primarily non-hetero male characters (keeping in mind that we also welcome straight guys as characters and have a couple of very secure straight male players who just like the atmosphere) do not exist now.

Gay and bi male characters tend to struggle, even in settings where they are of that orientation in the original source material. In superhero genre especially, these characters have always struggled and been ostracized and, to quote a friend, tend to be "treated like a barge of medical waste". It's a disturbingly common experience. I opened Flights 'n Tights to be sort of a place where people who wanted to play those characters could play them and have fun, without pressure of living up to the largely heteronormative other settings that tend to dominate the landscape.

Because believe it or not, we still -- even in this day and age -- have games that have a NEWS SEXUALITY and police this stuff. It's ridiculous. We have people who put forth heterosexuality as a default for any character who hasn't adequately "proved" otherwise. Which, if you're familiar with the various gay and bi guys in superhero comics...is kinda silly. Anime is even sillier.

I just wanted to chime in here and say, I'm really disappointed at some of these people commenting on this topic. I thought that here, of all places, would be a nice and cool new place to connect with people and let them know we're around if they want to come hang out and have fun. I am very grateful to those who have spoken up and set some people straight (no pun intended), but good grief. This is really sad and upsetting to log back in to, and it's just more proof that well...Flights 'n Tights needs to stick around, because jfc this is ridiculous.

Feel free to stop by. I'm around most days for sure from midnight EST to around 1-2 PM. We're trying to get some group scenes going on Sundays and some Tuesdays and, regardless of what anyone may assume...we are happy to have you join us.

But if the game's not for you, please don't just troll with things you pulled out of your posterior to hurt us. We work hard and try to make a good game for everyone who might enjoy it. I don't care for Dune as a setting, but I am certainly not going to sit down and point fingers at a game I've never played, which doesn't appeal to me as a player, when someone posts a Dune MU* ad. I'm going to go instead, like an adult, to a listing that appeals to me and see if anyone has anything to say about their experiences.

ThugHeaven

So....transgendered superhero(ine). Allowed? Yes or no?

Arkandel

@Hushicho said in Flights 'n Tights MUX:

The one or two games that have ever welcomed primarily non-hetero male characters (keeping in mind that we also welcome straight guys as characters and have a couple of very secure straight male players who just like the atmosphere) do not exist now.

Citation please? I've been on several games non-straight male characters were being played.

surreality

@Arkandel He did say primarily non-het male chars -- which really is functionally different from 'everything is allowed, but the vast majority is heteronormative' even if the het crowd is actually very chill and welcoming. Which... is not always the case.

I still think it's more chill and welcoming now than it was ten years ago, but ten years ago it was pretty fucking wretched.

Arkandel

@surreality Yeah, I misread that. My bad.

Ganymede

@Hushicho said in Flights 'n Tights MUX:

If you weren't aware, we do not care what biological sex, gender, or gender identity any player is. All we are is a game for male characters as PCs. If you find that "creepy", then move right along. It is not a game for you. But I'd appreciate you not trying to insult my game and the community there by assuming a huge amount of things about a game that is clearly not your thing.

My objection isn't with your community, the players, or anyone personally. It is with the exclusion that seems inherently opposed to the apparent purpose of your game. Your choice marginalizes the entire sub-set of superheroines, which, although done perhaps without a malicious intent, is a painful reminder that such marginalization continues, despite recent advances in the genre.

I applaud the openness of your community, and I applaud that you have the courage to stand up for what you believe in. This game, however, does not seem representative of that, and it is for this reason that I criticize your game's scope and policies.

surreality

@Ganymede I get what you're saying, but... two things.

First, the serious bit, being that I don't think a niche game that states up front they're a niche game needs to fight every social battle in the comics arena. (Even though I strongly share your view re: goddammit can we please treat our heroines equally.)

Second, the 'I wish I was just kidding' bit... about 90% of the lesbian or bisexual heroines I've seen on games have been played by men as pure porn bait. This... really only exacerbates the problem you're describing. Which is unfortunate.

Misadventure

Take all known super heroes, change their sex.
Make them native to, and place their stories in Africa, South East Asia, Australia and New Zealand.
Make it science fiction by giving those places the boons of super tech and attendant wealth, and make the cultures accepting of "non-normative" sexual identities and intercultural interactions.
Set the sexual identity/sexuality of any given character as desired.

Ganymede

@surreality said in Flights 'n Tights MUX:

First, the serious bit, being that I don't think a niche game that states up front they're a niche game needs to fight every social battle in the comics arena. (Even though I strongly share your view re: goddammit can we please treat our heroines equally.)

You don't have to fight every social battle, but you ought not be offended when others point out that you have intentionally declined to do so, and that such act cements what is perceived to be another form of discrimination. How one reacts to that is also an apt topic for criticism; here, calling my previous comments "hate" is not only incorrect but also, unfortunately, offensive.

Second, the 'I wish I was just kidding' bit... about 90% of the lesbian or bisexual heroines I've seen on games have been played by men as pure porn bait. This... really only exacerbates the problem you're describing. Which is unfortunate.

This may have been true in the past, but I don't think it is the case here. Men and women can portray lesbian or bisexual heroines with equal depth as actual lesbians or bisexual people, inasmuch as gay men can portray a heterosexual hero.

surreality

@Ganymede I wouldn't call your comments hateful, no.

On the rest, I'd still bet the female equiv would end up being something more along the lines of Flirts n' Skirts, which would make my desire to stab things crop up again.

ThatGuyThere

@Hushicho said in Flights 'n Tights MUX:

I just wanted to chime in here and say, I'm really disappointed at some of these people commenting on this topic. I thought that here, of all places, would be a nice and cool new place to connect with people and let them know we're around if they want to come hang out and have fun.

You do realize we are the decedent of WORA don't you?
As a community we have gotten a lot more constructive and while the environment is a lot less vitriolic then WORA was; the first inclination of a lot of the posters, at times myself included is to tear apart things, Fights 'n Tights got no worse treatment then a number of other games of varying genres.

Personally I give you thumbs up, more games good, more variety in games good so keep up the good work.
It is not a game for me, not because of the sexual side of things but because of the lack of a system, but fully applaud the effort put into making the game work and survive. Try not to get discouraged my the griping it is not meant personally and is mostly just the nature of us. Like Statler and Waldorf kvetching is our default setting.