If an apology begins 'I am sorry you...' it's a good indicator that the person is deflecting, not apologizing. Actual apologies involve accepting accountability for whatever you did. It's not bloody complicated.
'I am sorry I...'
Not
'I am sorry you"...'
So I've RP'd a few relationships with Ghost. I heavily communicate OOC and I never had any issues.
The two situations I saw with him and others... In one, the person said they were OK with something and then got hugely upset OOC over that very thing. He didn't handle it perfectly after that point, no. However, the other person was at fault in that she said 'OK' to something and then got upset when that thing happened. That's not on him.
In the other, the person never communicated anything- they just expected the IC flirting to evolve into a Twue Wuv Forever and when it didn't, got hugely upset.
With the latter situation, I'd seen her do similar on other games. She had a tendency to plot out her character's entire future, how it involved other people, and never tell those people... but get upset when they didn't fall in line. This one is more squarely on her. I tried mediating for her on a few MU*s before I had to fully wash my hands of her.
But, really, I have to vehemently disagree with the 'refuse to communicate OOCly' part.
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
Then why apologize, if there was no wrongdoing?
Hint: At that point it becomes shaming, not apologizing. Which, whatever? But to expect people not to say something is ridiculous.
Trying out this new fangled replying thing
@Sunny I do get that distinction. Yet I still read it as an apology, as did others. I see it as I have explained it.
If I turn out to be objectively right, and it is sincere, does it matter to you that the phrasing is poor?
It is poor, that is for sure.
I'd put in my rewrite of it, but Ghost is right here to ask. I think.
@Sunny said in The Apology Thread:
Then why apologize, if there was no wrongdoing?
That was largely directed to Miss-Demeanor and the implications, per her post, that everything Ghost did was wholly his fault. I'm saying there were situations in which there was fault on both ends (see post above, please: 'He didn't handle it perfectly after that point, no.') and that I never had an issue in communicating with him.
In the first instance, he didn't handle it perfectly for the reasons he defined in his apology. He didn't realize how much it affected the person involved and at the time, downplayed it/their reaction. It's not a 'I'm sorry you reacted that way.' It's 'I'm sorry I treated the figurative gushing wound as if it were just a skinned knee.'
Back in my day you apologized to someone in person or at least directly. Doesn't really have the same weight when someone steps out onto their front porch and shouts to the street "I am sorry that I stretched out the crotch of your panties when I wanted to dress like a lady for a day"!
MSB free since 24/3/2018
Man, on MSB we can't even apologize without debating about it. 
Well, I feel we've reached that point where attempting further communication will be fruitless.
Maybe Ghost will want to chime in.
Maybe people will provide better details of what was done, whether it involved triggering (meaning effects from an unrelated but similar event), and so on.
I stand by my assertion that apologies are pointless here.
@Arkandel said in The Apology Thread:
Man, on MSB we can't even apologize without debating about it.
I take offense to this viewpoint. I am not discussing, I am educating. Geez, can't you ever get it straight?!
(Ok, let's see... I refuted the accusation of a debate with a counter-argument. I asserted my intellectual dominance. I tossed out a not-so-subtle insult. What am I missing...)
Oh, wait, I got it!
@Arkandel I'm sorry you thought we were debating.
<.<
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
@Auspice I am sorry I said anything!
@Sunny I think there probably is a way to go about this -- people can still be hurt/have bad feelings about something even if no one did anything wrong, and it's important IMHO to recognize and respect that. It is HARD AS HELL to phrase that without it being 'I'm sorry you got upset, I didn't mean to do that and I'm sorry it happened' even if you genuinely truly do feel bad and want to make things better.
That tends to be more, "I didn't realize that would upset you, I'm sorry it happened, I will not do that again, is there anything I can do to help make it better?" territory.
Oh fucking well.
Which, when you have a situation like that, is a blanket, non-targetted public post really the appropriate fucking way to handle it? Really? 
Context.
@Sunny Oh, that, no.
(I still have the dumb today, a whole three days of people-people-people craft show and then jury duty. It is entirely possible I may not have brain again for some time. 
)
@Sunny said in The Apology Thread:
Which, when you have a situation like that, is a blanket, non-targetted public post really the appropriate fucking way to handle it? Really?
Context.
...isn't that all Random Bitching is? Blanket, non-targeted public posts?
@Auspice I'm not trying to address his every interaction ever. I'm trying to address the ones where there was no OOC communication. Its that whole thing of 'just because it didn't happen to you doesn't mean it didn't happen at all'. You may not have had any problems. But clearly other people did. I know I did. Any time I tried to talk to him OOCly about the direction our characters were taking he would respond only with 'I don't plan things out' and 'I keep it all IC'. He knew what he was going to have his character do, but he knowingly left me in the dark, then acted surprised that I was upset when he pulled a 180 and I was left holding the bag. Then got mad at me for daring to be mad at him for not communicating with me. Oh... and all the while bitching to me about how his decision was coming back to bite him in the ass as the person he was chasing after wasn't communicating with him, and it was frustrating him.
So I'm glad that you didn't have any issues with him. Not everyone was that lucky in their dealings with him. And that post of his? Not an apology. @Sunny hit the nail on the head. There's no 'I'm sorry I...' in there, just 'I'm sorry they...'.
@Arkandel said in The Apology Thread:
Man, on MSB we can't even apologize without debating about it.
I've been waiting for someone to say it.
I've dealt with @Ghost as a player on several games. I find him well-meaning but kinda spazzy with a tendency on occasion to fixate on entirely random things and blow them out of proportion. This thread seems to fit...that, but those are pretty standard MU*er traits on the whole.
More broadly, I feel like sincere apologies should be made in private, because who the f knows if the person you're apologizing to wants it aired publicly. However it's phrased.
There must be a post I can't see.
Because I don't see 'I'm sorry you' anywhere in his posts.
I see ones about how he's apologizing to people for how he handled things.
Can someone find the post where he says 'I'm sorry you' that Sunny and Miss-Demeanor are referencing, please? Because I can't.
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
If you want an apology to be taken seriously, I suggest the following:
Make it personal and private, if the offense was towards a person and was not a psycho hosebeast explosion publicly. Generic Sorry I Was A Butt To Some People "apologies" come across about as sincere and are about as effective as those cop out Some People Need To/Not generic gutless staff finger waggling posts on Bb1.
Don't apologize to make yourself look/feel better. Apologize because you feel you genuinely sorry about the hurt/stress/inconvenience you cause someone, and you want to recognize that without justification. If you're not and/or there's no relationship there to repair (either as an acquaintance you'd like to keep/someone you'd like a good working relationship with/a friendship), then you probably aren't going to approach it in a sincere way.
As hard as it is, if you are apologizing then avoid bringing up all the ways it's really generous of you to be doing this towards someone so sensitive/triggered/that has no life unlike yourself. If you can't avoid that, wait until you can. Or don't apologize, because you're still more interested in making your point rather than repairing something.
I have done my share of apologizing (including to people here). If you're still in the stage of "Man, I didn't realize how touchy they were! I guess I should say sorry that I brushed up against their butthurt." You're just not there yet. And that's okay.
@mietze said in The Apology Thread:
If you want an apology to be taken seriously, I suggest the following:
- Make it personal and private, if the offense was towards a person and was not a psycho hosebeast explosion publicly. Generic Sorry I Was A Butt To Some People "apologies" come across about as sincere and are about as effective as those cop out Some People Need To/Not generic gutless staff finger waggling posts on Bb1.
That's not always possible. MUSHes are transient things, if I was an asshole to Jenny@SomeGame a public apology is really all I have, especially if Jenny's player has had any reason to think I'm going to stalk her across games by revealing her other identities.
Well, I feel we've reached that point where attempting further communication will be fruitless.
Maybe Ghost will want to chime in.
Maybe people will provide better details of what was done, whether it involved triggering (meaning effects from an unrelated but similar event), and so on.
I stand by my assertion that apologies are pointless here.
