Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning

Doozer

@Roz said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

@Shincashay Thralls can be brought into Arx, but only to remain in the Thrax Ward. Because the Wards are basically like embassies. They run under their high lord's law.

Oh of course. I should have said to me it's unreasonable. ICly go for it.

Ganymede

@Cupcake said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

I realize you're probably just using my post to leapfrog, but it kind of came off like that was a direct snark at me. If it wasn't, I apologize for assuming.

I was using your post as a leap-frog point, yes. The phrasing was just what I was looking for. I'm more direct in my snark than that.

But, in a way, yes. I'm being snarky. And I'm being snarky because what was said about keeping one's opinions to themselves seems to be holding true. And if it is holding true, then there is a problem here beyond @lordbelh. And this is far more important to the game than what's happening IC with the Thrax family.

A friend of mine here once reminded me about the importance of standing up and making a point, regardless of whether it benefits me personally. That is the case here.

Arkandel

@Packrat said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

Added to that just how would people invade Thrax? Redrain is entirely land locked, Valardin is literally the other side of the continent, you would basically be limited to the Crown, Grayson by extension then maybe some of the Lyceum if you could get them to be interested. Given Thrax would be defending and on islands, with sieges of castles being drawn out and hideously expensive things, I do not find it surprising that nobody has ever done it.

You know what a much easier way is? Get the person playing the Thraxian High Lord banned and give the rostered character to someone else who saw what happened to the last guy who played a certain way.

Just sayin'.

Thenomain

@Ganymede said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

@Cupcake said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

I kind of feel compelled to point out that this isn't a static issue.

I kind of feel compelled to point out that, while many of you have expressed seeing @lordbelh go, few seem to be intent on why this occurred.

I also kind of feel compelled to point out that, while at least one has expressed the fear of saying anything contrary to the status quo, no one has given many fucks as to why, or what will be done to fix that.

You know, Gany, it's unusual for you to mention something twice. I imagine this is your version of getting quiet, stroking a white, long-haired Persian cat. You can borrow mine, tho he's very playful and not white and he sheds a lot. Not a good villain cat.

I will say that I assume from the mood of the thread and my own experience that if staff felt that this was a problem they would address it, though staff seems to wisely be not too present for another round of their game being questioned.

If staff does respond to this, indirectly through action, it would do quite a bit of good for someone to repeat it here. It directly affects people's willingness to try the game, advertising thread and all.

@Ganymede said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

A friend of mine here once reminded me about the importance of standing up and making a point, regardless of whether it benefits me personally. That is the case here.

Good on you and your friend.

(edit: grammar)

Cupcake

Do I think staff overreacted?

Yes.

TNP

@Shayd said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

@Cupcake said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

I kind of feel compelled to point out that this isn't a static issue. Thrax IS evolving.

Several members of Thrax and their vassals have either openly or quietly indicated their desire to remove the institution.

Political and trade alliances have been made to aid in releasing significant portions of the thrall population.

Vassals now have the ability to modify the institution in a variety of ways, such as no longer imposing the debt of a parent on a child, minimum age requirements to be placed in thralldom, etc.

The goal with this is to abolish the institution without destroying Thrax economically, as well as be able to guide those in thralldom slowly into their rights and freedoms. And it is happening at a measured rate. Whether it's happening fast enough for all parties is a matter of IC discussion.

Which I think is awesome!

I don't. That is, depending on the extent of what happens. I find it ridiculous that after many centuries, an ingrained institution is suddenly changing because the game opened and players' OOC beliefs on slavery are 'it's bad' and want thralldom abolished. Sure, sure. The characters could also believe that. They shouldn't; not so many that it happens IN THE MIDDLE OF A MAJOR WAR of annihilation being directed at the entire Compact.

Aside from that, I don't like the idea that Thrax are being pressured to lose so much of what makes them interesting. The day Thrax becomes bland, I'll probably drop my character and/or the game.

Roz

@TNP said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

@Shayd said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

@Cupcake said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

I kind of feel compelled to point out that this isn't a static issue. Thrax IS evolving.

Several members of Thrax and their vassals have either openly or quietly indicated their desire to remove the institution.

Political and trade alliances have been made to aid in releasing significant portions of the thrall population.

Vassals now have the ability to modify the institution in a variety of ways, such as no longer imposing the debt of a parent on a child, minimum age requirements to be placed in thralldom, etc.

The goal with this is to abolish the institution without destroying Thrax economically, as well as be able to guide those in thralldom slowly into their rights and freedoms. And it is happening at a measured rate. Whether it's happening fast enough for all parties is a matter of IC discussion.

Which I think is awesome!

I don't. That is, depending on the extent of what happens. I find it ridiculous that after many centuries, an ingrained institution is suddenly changing because the game opened and players' OOC beliefs on slavery are 'it's bad' and want thralldom abolished.

I think believing anything else would ever happen on a MU* would be wildly optimistic.

Ganymede

@Cupcake said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

Do I think staff overreacted?

Yes.

This really doesn't have to do with you. It never did.

You never owed me an explanation or answer or opinion. If @lordbelh's still watching, though, I think he appreciates the support. As do I.

But, you refrained from talking. And I'm guessing that this is for cause. Because few of us paused to shit on Fallcoast or The Reach. We shit on it, and we gleefully did so, even though many of us still played on it.

No one should ever be concerned that what they say here will come back to haunt them on a game. Ever. That's why places like this exist.

Just ignore what @Thenomain said. I'm far too stupid and impulsive to be villainous.

Cupcake

I didn't think it was about me. But you felt it should be discussed, so I put in my two cents.

I did have reasons for being quiet, and not to be coy, but they're my own, and it's not to champion the game. I've openly criticized the game before, and to some degree, staff action, but never on an interpersonal manner until now. But the long and short of it is, yes, I DO think this was an overreaction on staff's part.

(And I kind of feel like I've made it about me which was not the intent, I'm sorry. Carry on.)

TNP

@Roz said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

I think believing anything else would ever happen on a MU* would be wildly optimistic.

I know

Arkandel

@Ganymede said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

You never owed me an explanation or answer or opinion. If @lordbelh's still watching, though, I think he appreciates the support. As do I.

I think it goes even beyond that. Yes, I would hope people who believe @lordbelh was treated unfairly should speak up because today is probably not very pleasant for him and showing some support can go a long way. But it's not not just about that.

If people have no opinion of these things then absolutely they shouldn't feel compelled to contribute. But if they do, even if it's to disagree then shutting up for fear of retaliation - either on a game or a forum - is pretty weak.

When the price of our opinions is this low - basically nothing, at the very worst case scenario you might get rebuked (on MSB we don't even have downvotes!) or lose out on some staff favors in the future in a game - and we still don't say anything, then when do we do so?

It's not that different from people who shit on VASpider, years later and without the slightest fear of reprisal, but happily went along with it when it suited them.

In fact it's the exact same thing.

Misadventure

One day when I am a game tyrant, I would hope people would try to reality check me on behalf of players they have long term trust with.

yourmamasayswhat

@Misadventure That is if we aren't too afraid to speak up.

Thenomain

@Misadventure said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

One day when I am a game tyrant, I would hope people would try to reality check me on behalf of players they have long term trust with.

Then you wouldn't be a tyrant. You would be a peer.

@Ganymede: You could be a terrible villain with a terrible villain's-cat. It would be adorable, and you'd be so confused why everyone thinks of you fondly.

Ganymede

@Thenomain said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

You could be a terrible villain with a terrible villain's-cat. It would be adorable, and you'd be so confused why everyone thinks of you fondly.

Perhaps I am a terrible cat villain?

Meg

I wish I knew more about the situation. Nothing happens in a vacuum. There's never one straw and never just one interaction. I am not staying quiet out of fear of retaliation; I have spoken my mind openly to staff, politely I hope, when I disagree. But we've only vaguely heard one side, and that really isn't something I can call anyone on.

Do I think @lordbelh is a good roleplayer? Yes. Do I think he seems pretty fair? Yes. I do also think that he can come across a little gruff and terse. I certainly had a few situations with him where I didn't appreciate something he did. (And by a few, I literally mean like, two.) I am sure he has thought the same of me.

But I have also had enough interactions with staff to have trust in them. They have dealt fairly with me and people that I know. They have gone out of their way to be helpful and create stories. Do I think they have made mistakes? Sure. Every new game does.

So without more from both sides, I don't want to put my foot into my mouth and speak out for either.

Anyways. More two cents for the day that anyone can take for what they will.

Pyrephox

@Shayd said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

@Arkandel : To be honest, I feel uncomfortable probably more because I think it's just me bringing up issues which are considered settled and overdiscussed and overargued. Also, I fucking hate slavery and thralldom A LOT. I don't want to look at it as an opportunity for roleplay when in reality if I discovered someone was holding thralls and had the weapons and political tools to stop it, I damned well WOULD, by force, and the idea that all the high and mighty noble houses that are "good" have been around for a thousand years and NOT rolled on Thrax like a Mack truck over a gopher makes all of those houses at the least complicit considering the fact that they're in an alliance. Which with the current threat makes sense to make uneasy allies, and that's how I'm roleplaying it; and willfully ignoring that for hundreds of years these houses have been sitting at the same table with a bunch of goddamn slavers.

I don't think you can call any of the noble houses "good", or the Faith "good", although they all have /good people/ in them. Pretty much every institution of Arx, if you read the help and theme files, is institutionally corrupt, and I think Apostate has said, at least once on channel, that addressing some of those things and doing the hard work of reforming them is part of the story. But thralls are terrible. Serfs, honestly, aren't /much/ better, despite being technically free. The Faith is largely corrupt, and engages in internal politics and backstabbing that's every bit as vicious as a great house (except for PCs). The shamanistic religions occasionally have to put down offshoots that go all human sacrifice-y. The Lyceum is filled with people who think upward mobility is best facilitated by poison (except for PCs). The Crown runs the Inquisition, which is /explicitly/ a bunch of murderous, torturing thugs (except for the PCs, who are honestly all pretty darned cool, that I've met).

Basically, Arx is largely the story of playing the (mostly) "good" people in a world that is kinda crapsack and horrible.

Autumn

I make it a general rule to try to keep things strictly IC as much as possible. While there are a handful of people who are exceptions, I don't usually talk with other players about anything other than what bears directly on play. If I think something in a game is weird or doesn't make sense or just plain stupid, the odds are that either I will leave quietly, or else continue playing and just keep my mouth shut about it when I'm not talking to the aforementioned handful of exceptions.

All the same -- and I say this without making any judgment as to whether the people saying this in this specific case are justified in feeling this way or not -- if I felt at risk of getting kicked off the game, or even getting my head bitten off by staff, for not keeping my mouth shut -- then the choice between "shut up and play" or "leave quietly" would be a pretty clear one.

yourmamasayswhat

@Meg Have you had a relationship with staff prior to this game? A friendship, specifically.

There are times I've come across players with a notable comfort with staff has been because they know them OOC either as friends or from other, older games. It gives the impression that in order to speak with staff comfortably, there needs to be an established trust that precedes Arx. Which also makes players hesitant to speak up or out about players with that kind of established relationship.

I am not comfortable speaking to staff. It's very difficult for me to trust them. I get incredibly anxious and check and recheck everything I write to them, to the point that I will give up and stop communicating because I'm afraid I'll be taken the wrong way, and just deal with the problems or issues I encounter in the game silently or do my best to work around it.

Staff has misunderstood me more than once and when I explain myself, I'm sweating bullets worried they will just ban me because they do not like my style of play or the way I've been represented. To my knowledge, I have never interacted with them outside of Arx, in previous games. When I have the attention of staff, I get nervous, as in the past attention from staff means you've done something wrong and/or they are watching your every move, waiting for you to fuck up so they can kick you out. The banning is triggering me pretty hard; it's to the point I'm not logging in to the game much, not since last week. It seems there are no assurances that I will be able to defend myself, and staff controls all of the information given in the game as far as the reasons why. One has to query others at their own risk to find the other side, or come here when pointed to by friends.

Sunny

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