MSB: The meta-discussion

[WhatInTheSun]

@Arkandel Oh hey look! Awesome. Thanks!

[Roz]

@Tempest said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

@WhatInTheSun said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

How many people are active on here? In the few places I've read, there's a smallish group that's vocal, then another layer of semi-vocal.

This is something I've noticed that's different from WORA.

Like yeah, there might be a decent pool of people who post here and there, but MSB is mostly like...the same 5 people from the WoD-crew circle-jerking each other all over the board about how they're the only people who know how to 'MU right'.

Um excuse me I am noisy as fuck and played a WoD game for all of like three scenes.

[Tempest]

@Roz You're not even one of the top 10 posters! Pfft.

[ThatGuyThere]

In my opinion MUSoapbox is a definite good.
There needs to be a place to talk about games not run by the people that run games where posters can say what they want.
Now it is true that most commentary is negative that that is basic human nature. Think about it in other things, if someone goes to a restaurant and have a bad experience they are far more likely to tell people and tell more people than if they have a good meal, so I would bet a truly open BBoard open to any discussion on restaurant would like devolve into mostly negativity. I know this is the case with reality TV shows except on boards where the mods have decides to purposely crack down on negativity. (Huge Big Brother fan) For Pro wrestling it is mostly the same. Comics boards tend negative to the point where someone like me who was a regular reader and semi-regular poster on WORA would say wow these places might be too toxic for me.
Not sure this says much about us as a species but from what i have seen across my interests is that if you want truly free discussion on the internet you will tend to get a truck load of negativity with it. For me I will gladly make the trade of of dealing with the negativity to get the unfettered discussion.

[WTFE]

@Arkandel said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

Since it's come up a lot in both private conversations lately but also in Random Bitching, I'm wondering what your views are on MSB's (and WORA's before it) effect on the community and course of MU*ing in general has been.

I would have quit all online text gaming over a decade ago had there not been a WORA-alike at the time. (I think we've just conclusively proved that WORA/SWOFA/MSB has been a huge net negative...)

Aside from our personal feelings on the matter, i.e. if we're using it as a way to connect and catch up with with friends over time, how do you think this place's existence has influenced our corner of gaming as a whole?

The existence of WORA-alikes has ensured that no game can really get away with its bullshit undetected for long. Yes there have been some horrors inspired by WORA (like mortuary porn-spamming) but on the whole I think WORA-alikes have been a net positive--albeit probably not as much of a net positive as some of its advocates would claim.

Might also remind everyone this is inthe constructive section of the site.

Fuck you, you son of a bitch.

I mean, sorry, constructive...

I hope that you have undesired sexual intercourse inflicted upon you after your mother crawls out from under the porch and bites you on the leg.

[Thenomain]

@WTFE

You forgot about cabana boys and pie.

It is my pleasure to remind you.

[WTFE]

@Thenomain said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

@WTFE

You forgot about cabana boys and pie.

It is my pleasure to remind you.

Don't make me break out my booze collection again.

[Miss Demeanor]

@Thenomain said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

@WTFE

You forgot about cabana boys and pie.

It is my pleasure to remind you.

Oh man. The cabana boys.

[Auspice]

I almost posted on WORA. Once. To defend myself.
Instead the person complaining about me posted the log and the wolves descended. I never had to say a word.

Beyond that, I only ever went on WORA once in a blue moon to read the bad descriptions thread.

[Gingerlily]

I think the people who really dislike MSB and think it is a net negative will not see this thread so they will never comment @Arkandel. There are many people in that camp who still MU* and/or still talk frequently to other people who MU* but there's not really a way to get their input here, so the thread will likely conclude at least in part that MSB is a good thing.

I'm neutral towards it myself. Sometimes I have enjoyed participating in conversations or just reading them, other times I have thought "I need to stop reading that forum, all it does is make me (negative emotion goes here.)" Thus far I still read it, but only when I am in particular moods, and I choose to avoid some sections sometimes. On a scale of 1-10 if the question was "How beneficial is MSB to the activity of MU* gaming I'd give it a solid 5. I am aware other people's ratings vary deeply in both directions.

I know you and I (the you being Ark again) have discussed at length and in some detail your opinions and my opinions and that was kind of where I ended up then too. I support many of your theories as to why it is or has the potential to be valuable, but am not sold enough to buy stock.

[Glitch]

Here are the most recent forum stats for user stuff. Unique visitors doesn't quite pan out, since people may check msb from their home/phone/work etc. And not all of those users are unique either. Some bans, others with more than one account, a few recent user deletions.

[surreality]

One of the things that people who haven't read here due to their opinions of WORA probably haven't noticed is the low tolerance for pointless shit-stirring, slut shaming, and slur crap. Some of this may just be a factor of people growing up, and general culture changing since those days, but they were all prevalent on WORA. Very prevalent.

[Arkandel]

@Gingerlily said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

I think the people who really dislike MSB and think it is a net negative will not see this thread so they will never comment @Arkandel. There are many people in that camp who still MU* and/or still talk frequently to other people who MU* but there's not really a way to get their input here, so the thread will likely conclude at least in part that MSB is a good thing.

For sure. But the thread isn't supposed (or at least I didn't mean for it) to be about patting ourselves in our collective backs; it's about taking as honest a look as we can at what we do here.

There are people who dislike MSB for completely honorable reasons. They want their gaming experience to be about only the fun parts, or they'd rather not peek behind the mirror, or simply think we're full of shit; I have nothing against those folks, and I'd never try to convince them otherwise. To each their own.

And there are people who don't like the fact we might speak less than kindly of their actions here; well, perhaps they shouldn't be acting in a way that might be spoken of that way. That's not on MSB.

But you know what? There is a third kind of person who will not post on this thread. I was surprised at how many people with a lot to say and share came out and did so over PMs here who had barely posted once on the forums. In fact one said they never had (and I had only met them over a MU* we both played), but wanted to share how they were being treated on the game they were still on. It's not because they feared retaliation, just... they didn't want the attention, the extra hostility. But they wanted to chat about things with other people in the hobby because who else would understand the weird shit we say and do in the hobby?

I think that's an important outlet as well. Most of us have seen some weird stuff, right? Whatever underbelly online gaming has is really tough to translate into the real world, isn't it? You can't just go to a RL friend who's never played here and explain it - it's one of those things you need to be part of in the first place to understand.

MSB does that, too. It provides the sense of community - your buddy might not understand why the hell you'd be upset some 'staff member' of some weird niche hobby game was nasty to you, but folks around here would. At the very least you can share with the rest of the class and see if there was something to be legitimately annoyed or frustrated by.

I know you and I (the you being Ark again) have discussed at length and in some detail your opinions and my opinions and that was kind of where I ended up then too. I support many of your theories as to why it is or has the potential to be valuable, but am not sold enough to buy stock.

Sure! But that's the thing too. We don't have to agree to get along. I think it's the key to a forum like this, or maybe even the hobby overall.

[Thenomain]

@surreality

You are also comparing now to a history of almost twenty years. WORA--the first Wora, the genssis--was originally started for two purposes. One: In order to out the shitty behavior of staff of WoD games, specifically around the Ashes to Ashes/Start Your Engines era. We had a lot of Psycho Hose-Beasts (PHBs) running games as personal fiefdoms who would gladly screw around with those who didn't fit their own personality or upset their extended clique. Young Hitler (sorry, little Hitler baby sir, I forget your handle) had friends and they spread the posts. Essentially, Wora, at the outset, was a blog.

The second reason WORA was created was to drive those people insane, to make fun of them, and in some way to give them a taste of their own medicine. Wora was created to treat shitty people shittily. When Wora became more of a message board, it had only one rule: Sink or swim, it was up to you. Later it added a second: No personal information. (You may even be able to thank @VASpider for that one.) That was it.

When I stepped into Wora, at the tail end of the original message boards and before its first major change, it wasn't much different than your typical Usenet news forums, equal parts Insane Clown Posse and casual conversation. Few people did what Ark and I do, sit around for lengthy periods of time hashing out a post. I went back to see some things I'd posted on one of the incarnations thinking that I had this lengthy discussion when it was me saying something, someone else disagreeing, me disagreeing with them, and the rest of the people reading ignoring it and moving on.

In total I think that part of the discussion was maybe fifty words. Glasses can be tinted with rose or brown crud. Hindsight can be nearsighted as well as 20/20.

Until Soapbox, Wora was still filled with people who shit-posted for fun. I doubt any of them were terribly serious about it (though a few were). It might have been called trolling, except that Wora's seen precious few actual trolls; everyone else was either too serious for their own good or giggled at themselves then forgot about it until later.

What Wora was, though, was a reflection of our WoD-centric corner of the hobby. Even as late as 2010, if you didn't see slut-shaming a-plenty on WoD games, then I envy your sheltered online life. I was just as pissed off at VASpider and I can't remember who all mocking people by spamming conversations with talk about being served drinks by cabana boys and the deliciousness of pie, because they were not much different than the people they hated for spamming discussions with more boyish shit-stirring. I don't think the ability to distract and derail a conversation is something to be proud of.

(I do, however, think there are exceptions that prove the rule, such as punching Nazis. It's always okay to punch a Nazi.)

--

Someone whose opinion I respect says that Soapbox has gotten boring, and that's the downside of it; being afraid to offend is not conductive to discussion. Sometimes discussions will get heated, and that has to be okay; even frustration or open criticism needs its safe space.

All of that said, I am elated that it's largely changed. I'm seeing different kinds of online games discussed and advertised. A lot of what I'm seeing (and a lot of what I'm saying!) can be too analytical--get your hands dirty, people, and make games and play games and rar!--but a lot of people who have been too afraid to say anything are saying things for the first time in ever. That's awesome.

[Ganymede]

@Thenomain said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

All of that said, I am elated that it's largely changed. I'm seeing different kinds of online games discussed and advertised. A lot of what I'm seeing (and a lot of what I'm saying!) can be too analytical--get your hands dirty, people, and make games and play games and rar!--but a lot of people who have been too afraid to say anything are saying things for the first time in ever. That's awesome.

I'm glad I'm not composing multi-page responses to shit these days.

Like, what the fuck, did I have that much spare time? I'm a loser of a different variety these days.

[krmbm]

@Thenomain said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

Someone whose opinion I respect says that Soapbox has gotten boring, and that's the downside of it; being afraid to offend is not conductive to discussion. Sometimes discussions will get heated, and that has to be okay; even frustration or open criticism needs its safe space.

All of that said, I am elated that it's largely changed. I'm seeing different kinds of online games discussed and advertised. A lot of what I'm seeing (and a lot of what I'm saying!) can be too analytical--get your hands dirty, people, and make games and play games and rar!--but a lot of people who have been too afraid to say anything are saying things for the first time in ever. That's awesome.

As a long time member of WORA - as far as I know, I've had an account on every version since there were actual forums - this pretty much sums it up for me.

I've never been a particularly active poster, primarily because I don't play the games "you guys" play. But I've always kept tabs on it over the years, and I've seen it go from "the place where Rasheem re-posts whatever new racist slur he found somewhere on the internet this morning" to "Peverel's place where we're not allowed to get personal" to what it seems to be now: "the place where everyone goes to talk about the 'wouldn't it be great ifs' but not much seems to materialize."

It's not as funny as it used to be. It also doesn't seem as likely to spawn a WoD run by WORA-members which will inevitably implode under the weight of all those egos. There's not as much truly awesome drama to read. But there's also not as many stupid fucking in-jokes to read.

So you win some, you lose some.

I still like knowing it's here. Even if I'm not playing anything at all at the moment.

[Gingerlily]

@Arkandel said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

There are people who dislike MSB for completely honorable reasons. They want their gaming experience to be about only the fun parts, or they'd rather not peek behind the mirror, or simply think we're full of shit; I have nothing against those folks, and I'd never try to convince them otherwise. To each their own.

And there are people who don't like the fact we might speak less than kindly of their actions here; well, perhaps they shouldn't be acting in a way that might be spoken of that way. That's not on MSB.

Gotta say that here is the point that I definitely don't agree with. There are people who have been treated horribly on MSB. There are people who clearly get some enjoyment out of treating others horribly on MSB. Is that on MSB in that it is the moderator's fault, or everybody's fault who ever contributes to MSB? Nah, but it's still a part of what MSB is. People are regularly nasty to other people for various and sundry reasons, and it is not always or even mostly connected to the concept of righteously exposing wrongdoing that others might be informed. Honest analysis of what happens on the entirety of this forum cannot deny that truth or it is not any kind of honest analysis.

[surreality]

@Thenomain said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

What Wora was, though, was a reflection of our WoD-centric corner of the hobby. Even as late as 2010, if you didn't see slut-shaming a-plenty on WoD games, then I envy your sheltered online life. I was just as pissed off at VASpider and I can't remember who all mocking people by spamming conversations with talk about being served drinks by cabana boys and the deliciousness of pie, because they were not much different than the people they hated for spamming discussions with more boyish shit-stirring. I don't think the ability to distract and derail a conversation is something to be proud of.

I'm with you here. In part, because even now... everyone thinks I'm one of the people who championed that, and that continues to bug me. (Though, actually, no, that wasn't me -- it was the other chick with vast tracts of land, and everybody always got us confused because nobody could leave that pointless fact alone ever, either. Even I don't recall her forum name now.)

Someone whose opinion I respect says that Soapbox has gotten boring, and that's the downside of it; being afraid to offend is not conductive to discussion. Sometimes discussions will get heated, and that has to be okay; even frustration or open criticism needs its safe space.

I've never felt that heated discussions, frustration, or open criticism is at all unwelcome here. The only difference I have seen is that there's an active focus on shitty behaviors, explaining why they're shitty behaviors, and bitching about the damage those shitty behaviors have done -- rather than just going with the 'X is just shitty and should die in a fire!' with a dogpile of insults to a person that only tended to skim the reasons they were a problem. Really, the latter there is fine for venting, but it doesn't actually accomplish much in terms of identifying why they were shitty, and preventing someone else from doing that shitty thing again.

The Elsas and Spiders still get crucified. There just aren't as many Elsas and Spiders these days, compared to the number of them that once existed. They were the majority once, and that they're no longer the majority -- well, I wouldn't say WORA is the only reason for that, but it was certainly one of them.

WORA needed an endless supply of Storms and Jessica Rabbits and so on, and that well ran relatively dry after a while. Smaller things started to get the same response and level of vitriol as they had quite rightly earned, however, and that's not a great thing.

[Gingerlily]

@surreality

Yeah people get pretty offensive here and seem to thoroughly enjoy it. I'm not only referring to trolls either, but to the regular posting crew. When a group of people are pissed at a particular player, or a game as a whole, or a particular staffer...I don't think the claws stay sheathed. It gets nasty plenty often.

For me that doesn't necessarily mean 'MSB is a bad place, its bad for gaming, text gaming would be better without it" It just means "MSB is a forum and it reads just as most forums on anything at all do. Sometimes productive, interesting conversations. Sometimes people being supportive of one another in various ways. Sometimes just plain straight up nasty behavior with deliberate intent to hurt people." So in that sense its just sort of typical. It's a forum. I don't know how many of you have ever read any mommy/parenting forums but the content is basically the same. Sometimes wonderful and community building, sometimes people deliberately trying to make other people cry. (I cannot handle parenting forums AT ALL anymore but still click around MSB occasionally so maybe that tells us something.).

Just for reference, I was never part of WORA. Someone showed me something on it once and it was so cruel and vile that I did not want to even provide my pageclicks, I felt that strongly about how hideous it was. So I mean, I clearly see this as a much better place. I'm not anti MSB, I've had some great, productive conversations here. I just don't know that I'd go so far as to say it is a beneficial public service to this particular geek community. It can be great, it can be really gross and ugly, and that's basically how 90% of forums on the internet work, so it's working out as designed, I'd figure.

[surreality]

@Gingerlily I used to be a mod on the big abortiondebate forum on livejournal. I have seen some shit. <rubs salve on all the scars> So I know precisely what you're saying about it just kinda being how people are on the internets.