Emotional separation from fictional content
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I guess if I was going to have a complaint "system" I would have it be anonymous, and provide a specific set of kinds of problems, so the player complained about could get an idea of what was going on.
I have seen SO FUCKING many staffers and players assert that people are doing things on purpose with nefarious purposes ending with "You know what you did so I won't tell you." Fuck that. I never forget that sort of behavior.
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We have been arguing about where "the line" is all thread. Hell, all forum. Hell, since the first WORA.
I agree with you entirely, of course, but I thought the complexity of implementing something this simple needed singling out. How many people here have lost trust in staff, players, or even an entire game because the line you expected turned out to be argued or even outright told was wrong?
A lot of people stop engaging rather than causing trouble for themselves.
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@Thenomain said in Emotional separation from fictional content:
We have been arguing about where "the line" is all thread. Hell, all forum. Hell, since the first WORA.
I agree with you entirely, of course, but I thought the complexity of implementing something this simple needed singling out. How many people here have lost trust in staff, players, or even an entire game because the line you expected turned out to be argued or even outright told was wrong?
A lot of people stop engaging rather than causing trouble for themselves.
The line shifts when society shifts; the line has been shifting ever further towards something less permisive of destructive and abusive attitudes, and we need to shift with it.
IMO, if a game doesn't apply a certain minimum of a line, it's not worth playing. Maybe the answer is to ask where the line is at the beginning, and expect games to have that line presented in a file, on a wiki, wherever, that is easily accessible and in plain view.
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@Ganymede said in Emotional separation from fictional content:
The issue isn't whether a transgression is significant or not. That depends on the complainant. Failure to file a complaint means that staff may not notice what's going on. It's important to put in a complaint. I'd make this very clear. If something bugs you, report it. I don't give a shit how small it is.
A question we need to look at though is... are such things getting reported or do those who could, or should, simply take their losses and stop logging on instead? Whatever the cause may be - insecurity, staff in general being perceived as not being sympathetic, not knowing if you won't be judged or told you're too sensitive... whatever it is, my concern is it might be taking a toll. And that maybe making it as easy as typing "+complain Arkandel" knowing no one will ask any questions right at first unless there are more similar complaints might at least help get some feedback.
I agree with you if something bugs players even slightly they should report it. But staff (in general) have often been terrible about handling these things, requiring too much evidence before they do a thing, or not thinking what your problem is is enough or... whatever. So people stop saying anything. This needs to stop.
Sidenote: no one is fucking interested in your sex-related rant by page, and that to me is something I would report. Because that's how Rex/Sovereign and other "predators" get started. (I put that in quotations because he's the sort of stupid predator that gets shot apart real fast.)
Those kinds of players are actually the ones I was hoping to catch early. Sure, this particular guy playing the numbers by paging every female around was too overt and got dealt with but others might do it slightly more subtly, and they're not as easy.
@Coin said in Emotional separation from fictional content:
But if you page me, I ask you to stop, and you keep going, I will tell staff if I can't handle you on my own.
Sure, but what if you ask me to stop and I did so, but it still bugged you? Again, what I'm trying to do here is crowdsource detection of those 'under the radar' creeps. The others are already hopefully being reported.
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@Arkandel said in Emotional separation from fictional content:
@Coin said in Emotional separation from fictional content:
But if you page me, I ask you to stop, and you keep going, I will tell staff if I can't handle you on my own.
Sure, but what if you ask me to stop and I did so, but it still bugged you? Again, what I'm trying to do here is crowdsource detection of those 'under the radar' creeps. The others are already hopefully being reported.
It depends on what the original reason for me asking you to stop is. If it's a sex rant, yes, you get reported anyway. If it's you asking for RP and me saying, "I don't want to, please stop paging me", and you stop, then that's fine. It's not a question that encroaches on my comfort. If I have asked you not to speak to me but you page me to ask for RP anyway, then I report you, because you have a clear lack of understanding as to what "don't talk to me" means.
Context.
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@Arkandel said in Emotional separation from fictional content:
A question we need to look at though is... are such things getting reported or do those who could, or should, simply take their losses and stop logging on instead?
I have doubts whether there will ever be a policy or code that would dissuade someone from cutting-and-running instead of confronting a problem. We play these games for fun, not to be harassed or to get into an internet argument with someone. If people choose to stop logging on, that is their choice and there is nothing I can think of to stop them.
Whatever the cause may be - insecurity, staff in general being perceived as not being sympathetic, not knowing if you won't be judged or told you're too sensitive... whatever it is, my concern is it might be taking a toll. And that maybe making it as easy as typing "+complain Arkandel" knowing no one will ask any questions right at first unless there are more similar complaints might at least help get some feedback.
Take it from a staff perspective. Typing "+complaint Thenomain" to ping me that @Thenomain has done something to upset you doesn't really tell me what he did. Without details, I don't know if he: harassed you on channel; paged you with salacious details of his sex life; sent you a dick-pic via Skype to your account that he inexplicably got from you; or was generally being a poopie-head. The code therefore is completely useless to staff, who cannot reasonably be expected to take action.
But staff (in general) have often been terrible about handling these things, requiring too much evidence before they do a thing, or not thinking what your problem is is enough or... whatever.
I get that, but there is nothing that your proposed code will do to address that.
Sure, this particular guy playing the numbers by paging every female around was too overt and got dealt with but others might do it slightly more subtly, and they're not as easy.
Look, if someone makes you feel uncomfortable and I happen to be staff on your game, tell me. If it's sexual, definitely tell me. I may have a high tolerance for people who randomly page me with "your PB is super-hawt!", but that doesn't mean anyone else should have to feel anxious about being on my game.
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This is -- I think -- similar to the way Shangrila's +complaint system works.
I have been looking at some means of doing something similar, but I am pondering appropriate implementation (and how to handle it code-side).
I have a concern that it could potentially get exploited by cliques to oust someone they dislike -- rallying a bunch of people to submit a number of minor complaints all at once from a team of 'allies' -- but that's a reality that has always existed for any sort of complaint setup.
This may warrant its own thread. Complaint tracking/issue reporting is its own animal in many respects, and it could warrant its own space for discussion of those options.
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I'm completely mystified at the idea that a sex-rated rant out of the blue wouldn't be across the line. I mean ... what?
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@saosmash said in Emotional separation from fictional content:
I'm completely mystified at the idea that a sex-rated rant out of the blue wouldn't be across the line. I mean ... what?
That's the one thing I can guarantee, 100%, that it happens - because I've specifically spoken with people on the receiving end. Their reasoning was actually very close to Gany's - "yes, that person is a creep, but I can handle myself". And that's often true, but the person in question isn't only talking to them, and the next person might not be able to handle it as well, and if they don't bother reporting them either before just logging out never to go back...
Lowering the report-bar seemed like an idea to consider.
However @surreality is correct in that this is probably off topic at this point, so I'll stop bringing it up.
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@Arkandel I'd be interested in seeing what people have to say about it; please don't stop talking about it. Just maybe it deserves its own thread, with a more 'complaint and issue tracking ideas' focus? It's certainly something that every game has to deal with, and if people have good ideas or know of things that have (or absolutely have not) worked, I know I would like to hear about them and how they were implemented and managed.
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@Coin said in Emotional separation from fictional content:
@Arkandel said in Emotional separation from fictional content:
it's debatably hard to justify reporting a guy to staff because he just paged out of the blue with a sex-related rant if he didn't actually cross the line, or stopped when asked to, or...whatever. But it still has an impact in making players uncomfortable.
Naw, it ain't. If someone pages you ot of the blue with a sex-related rant, then he already crossed the line and it's already entirely justified. Same if a person won't leave you alone when you told them 'no' or asked them to stop.
Yeah I have to second this. If someone is paging you completely out of the blue about sex or related things, how is that not complaint worthy? To me paging someone out of the blue with any kind of rant is already crossing the line, sex related content even more so because of the personal nature of it.
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@Arkandel said in Emotional separation from fictional content:
@saosmash said in Emotional separation from fictional content:
I'm completely mystified at the idea that a sex-rated rant out of the blue wouldn't be across the line. I mean ... what?
That's the one thing I can guarantee, 100%, that it happens - because I've specifically spoken with people on the receiving end. Their reasoning was actually very close to Gany's - "yes, that person is a creep, but I can handle myself". And that's often true, but the person in question isn't only talking to them, and the next person might not be able to handle it as well, and if they don't bother reporting them either before just logging out never to go back...
Lowering the report-bar seemed like an idea to consider.
However @surreality is correct in that this is probably off topic at this point, so I'll stop bringing it up.
Then the problem here is your phrasing. One thing is "does it cross the line" and another, separate thing, is "does it cross the line in a way that I can't personally handle," and another is "does this happen to other people and can I help them even if I can handle my own part of this on my own".
You tried reducing three intricate responses and considerations to a single phrase that has led to an answer you find unsatisfactory.
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@Thenomain said in Emotional separation from fictional content:
I agree with you entirely, of course, but I thought the complexity of implementing something this simple needed singling out. How many people here have lost trust in staff, players, or even an entire game because the line you expected turned out to be argued or even outright told was wrong?
A lot of people stop engaging rather than causing trouble for themselves.
I think for me this comes down to the same old adage: You can't use code to fix social problems.
Either people trust staff to take their concerns seriously or they don't. If they don't trust you to deal with a problem, they'll let things fester or they'll just leave. I don't think you earn trust by having an anonymous complaint system that tries to track creepers. You earn their trust by dealing with issues quickly and conscientiously, so people feel comfortable coming to you when there's a problem.
I am not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but I like to think I've done a good job of having an open-door policy and taking player concerns seriously. It's particularly important when someone has an issue with somebody perceived as being a friend of staff. It's hard, but sometimes you've just got to have those: "Hey I love you but you're being a jerk" conversations with your buddies.
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@faraday said in Emotional separation from fictional content:
@Thenomain said in Emotional separation from fictional content:
I agree with you entirely, of course, but I thought the complexity of implementing something this simple needed singling out. How many people here have lost trust in staff, players, or even an entire game because the line you expected turned out to be argued or even outright told was wrong?
A lot of people stop engaging rather than causing trouble for themselves.
I think for me this comes down to the same old adage: You can't use code to fix social problems.
You can, however, use code to make specific kinds of communications easier. I remember years ago on the old X-Men Movieverse MOO, we basically made up an @askstaff command that sent in an automated mail to staff with all the mail switches already handled and whatnot. We made it simpler to engage in a certain kind of communication with us, and a good number of people in the playerbase really liked it and people used it. It lowered the bar of difficulty on contact just a bit.
Sometimes people have had really bad experiences with staff on other games and it leaves them really hesitant to reach out on new games. This is super frustrating on the staff end, when you try to have that open-door policy, be reasonable and approachable and friendly, etc. But sometimes people have trouble anyways. I'd see putting in an easier code structure for lodging complaints (not necessarily anonymous) as just lowering the difficulty bar for the process of making contact with staff at all.
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@faraday said in Emotional separation from fictional content:
Either people trust staff to take their concerns seriously or they don't. If they don't trust you to deal with a problem, they'll let things fester or they'll just leave. I don't think you earn trust by having an anonymous complaint system that tries to track creepers. You earn their trust by dealing with issues quickly and conscientiously, so people feel comfortable coming to you when there's a problem.
"Be good and do the right thing" is not a solution for staff though; of course if you have proactive, available, open-minded and fair staff it'll probably work out. But that's like saying you shouldn't offer RP-finding tools either since great players will reach out, communicate and work it out.
You aren't offering solutions through code, you're offering tools.
Staff... get distracted. They have a ton of shit to do, from +jobs to running plot. It's easy - it's been proven easy, historically - to overlook things happening right under their noses. That shapes the perception of their role over time, which combined with the fact certain vulnerable players don't want to bring attention to themselves by speaking out too aggressively (what if they are judged? or told they are the problem? both have happened, by the way) they let things slide.
Again though, this isn't an anonymous system that I proposed but one where incidents aren't immediately actionable. It's meant to raise awareness about a potential issue, not to alert to an immediate present one. If people think including a justification is preferable ("he paged me saying some weird things about my PB's looks") then so be it.
But relying on thinking that if you're great people will feel comfortable coming to you isn't a solution, it's a goal. That's preferable, but what do you do in the mean time? Nothing?
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@Arkandel said in Emotional separation from fictional content:
That's preferable, but what do you do in the mean time? Nothing?
Actually yeah. There are plenty of tools already for contacting staff - pages, mail, jobs (+request may not quite be as 1-shot as @Roz's @askstaff command but it's pretty darn close). If you have that open door and are responsive to player concerns, and people still aren't willing to step forward with problems, that's their choice.
But really I'm not saying don't do it. If it works for your game, go for it. I just don't see it as being helpful personally.
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Some videogames have vote/devote systems but I think that's a way of building social contract into larger, even more anonymous spaces than MUs are.
This proposal seems like trying to codify (and even gamify) social interaction, reputation, and popularity. Which makes it sound mostly like a tool of potential abuse for cliques, staff, more established members of games, etc. I mean, you guys apparently removed downvoting here, what does that say about the ability for this same community to use it maturely on a game where the stakes are just a little higher?
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@kitteh said in Emotional separation from fictional content:
I mean, you guys apparently removed downvoting here, what does that say about the ability for this same community to use it maturely on a game where the stakes are just a little higher?
Who's "you guys"? MSB's admins decided it, which doesn't say anything more about what we're discussing here than me and @faraday disagreeing on its usefulness.
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@Arkandel said in Emotional separation from fictional content:
@kitteh said in Emotional separation from fictional content:
I mean, you guys apparently removed downvoting here, what does that say about the ability for this same community to use it maturely on a game where the stakes are just a little higher?
Who's "you guys"?
You're being pretentious. You knew exactly what @kitteh meant.
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@Coin Well, duh.