Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes

[surreality]

@Ninjakitten Nailed it! Though @Ganymede has it nailed, too, really.

(If I had a dime for every time I've seen that play out on a M*... well, I could at least pay for MUX hosting for life.)

[Groth]

@Pandora said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@ThatGuyThere said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Then how was the time of one hour decided on? Just because something is the same for everyone does not mean it is not arbitrary.

1. If you get stabbed in the abdomen and have one hour to live starting immediately.
2. If your finger gets chopped off, you're already beaten half to death, and you're bleeding, you have one hour to live starting immediately.
3. If you have cancer, you've had it for 2 years intermittently, and now it's spread so badly you're dying, and you now have one hour to live.
4. If you're 102 years old, haven't been ill even once since that hooker in 'Nam, dying of old age, and you now have one hour to live.

All of these would be considered 'critical' on the MUD. It's the point of time - not an arbitrary point, but the specific point of time in your injury/malady in which you now have one hour left to live that is considered critical. If this is a vocabulary debate though, sure we can call it arbitrary if we're also calling having 24 hours in a day arbitrary, or 60 seconds in a minute.

Not exactly. Arbitrary is anything chosen by personal preference rather then derived through a system. Hours and minutes are derived values and thus not arbitrary but the choice of using hours and minutes in the first place is. The point here being that there appears to be no reason the time until death should be 1 hour rather then 10 minutes or 10 hours.

[Seraphim73]

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

So, to clarify this, the kind of secrets I was referring to aren't of the 'pull lever, discover trapdoor' variety. I was referring more to, 'Everyone thinks my character's family died in a tragic accident, but in actuality, she murdered them all in cold blood.'
...
So I find it kind of sad, and I feel very cheated, if someone messages me OOCly to tell me all about their character's hidden motives. And if they ask for mine, my instinct is to just reply, 'fuck off'. @Lotherio claims that on MUSHes he plays, secrets are very much a part of the culture, but they aren't on the MUSH I'm playing on. And I think that, no matter the MUSH, when you allow for so much OOC communication, it's inevitable that people are going to want to be demanding and expect you to be more open. On most MUDs I've played, where simulationism and IC are king, 'find out IC' is a refrain held to a much higher regard than 'communication is key'. And thus, IC mysteries are much better preserved, and are more fun to unlock.

Actually, I'd say that Staff, at least, on The 100 MUSH is totally cool with players keeping secrets OOCly as well as ICly. While our +sheets may be viewable to everyone, backgrounds are not. We even have a mention in our New Player Guide suggesting that if you want to keep something secret, you include it in your background rather than as a Quirk on your +sheet.

I love ICly finding out new things about characters that I didn't know previously--it's one of the shames of being Staff, that you have most of these spoiled by reading backgrounds. It's simply that we don't enforce "OOC Masq" (as @ThatGuyThere was talking about) like some games do. If someone wants to tell you their character's big secret, ICly or OOCly, we don't punish them for doing so. If someone pushes you to share a secret about your character OOCly, tell them you're not going to--if they keep pushing, tell Staff, as that's a form of harassment.

(just to give a specific response to a semi-general/semi-specific comment)

[Caryatid]

@Groth

There is something in emergency medicine known as The Golden Hour and the clock starts ticking from the moment a serious injury is received or a medical emergency begins (heart attacks, strokes, etc.). It's used by EMS to gauge a person's prospects during assessment as well as how efficient EMS (fire, medical, etc.) are in responding.

It's also how many fire departments have justified larger budgets and more stations than ambulance departments but I won't get into that here.

There is some basis in reality here.

It sounds unfun to me but it isn't inaccurate by RL standards.

[faraday]

@Caryatid said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

It sounds unfun to me but it isn't inaccurate by RL standards.

Except that the idea of a Golden Hour has been disproved as a myth. Response times matter, but it varies widely. For a cardiac arreat, it's more like a Golden Ten Minutes, with bystander CPR being a huge determining factor.

For a game... yeah, sure, do whatever you like. But there's no real basis in reality here.

(Paramedic and former medic instructor here)

[Caryatid]

@faraday Fair enough, it's been 15 years since I worked in the field. I'm not current on what has changed and I know it's been a lot.

Coincidentally it's been 15 since I've tried a MUD or RPI too.

[Lotherio]

@Groth said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

All of these would be considered 'critical' on the MUD. It's the point of time - not an arbitrary point, but the specific point of time in your injury/malady in which you now have one hour left to live that is considered critical. If this is a vocabulary debate though, sure we can call it arbitrary if we're also calling having 24 hours in a day arbitrary, or 60 seconds in a minute.

Not exactly. Arbitrary is anything chosen by personal preference rather then derived through a system. Hours and minutes are derived values and thus not arbitrary but the choice of using hours and minutes in the first place is. The point here being that there appears to be no reason the time until death should be 1 hour rather then 10 minutes or 10 hours.

The time was a point of reference for a MUD, if you have a wound of a certain severity, you have a limited amount of time to heal that wound. The code sets certain wounds or wound thresholds to automatically start a character bleeding, they can watch their health or HP dwindle. Its based on the Tics the system is using. A tic is the length of time that everyone else would call a Round. It could be once every sec, once every five secs. Its hard set unlike traditional RPG rounds. Its arbitrarily decided on, but its part of the game culture of a MUD, its hard set. As it is a game at its heart, if you take a wound, you need to fix it or die, much like in other graphical games. The hour is set to MUD time because before this, people would log off and come back when they could be healed or the system reset their mortal wounding.

On a MUSH, we prefer other solutions to the RL time constraint. It doesn't mean we don't accept death, we gladly do (most of us), it doesn't mean we don't accept loss or failure either.

Belated response, sorry.

[Lotherio]

@ThatGuyThere said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Kestrel
Since you are so new to mushing to help understand hte openness i will give a thumbnail of what was before the openness.
Back in the day there was an Official OOC Masquerade on most WoD games. Meaning you were not allowed to talk about what you were, and by extension what anyone else was. This was done to promote mystery and IC secrecy. It failed mainly because it provided benefits to those willing to blur IC lines to come up with the answers they already knew through alts and the fact that in general humans are bad secret keepers, the other big effect was it monetized OOC knowledge, since the info about who was what could and was used as a bargaining chip on an OOC level.
So as a result it has been changed. How on a lot of other genres secrets still exist and happen. And keeping a secret is still doable on WoD you just have to actually keep it a secret. Expecting others to keep secrets about themselves however is likely not going to happen.

Just to combine the two posts, @ThatGuyThere and @Thenomain's right before it. PK was a big part of older WoD mu's (as I recall), whether crosssphere or single splat (yes, a lot of the 90s ones were single sphere too as I recall, if crosssphere, it was mild like Vampire and Werewolf). The culture seemed to cater to who was on the longest with the most XP and the bigger builds, and some that enjoyed PK to the point of finding reason to antagonize and get others to start a fight. Barring this, some went a step further, using x vs x sphere (or x vs x clan/etc), the sole grounds for justifiable PK was werewolf meets vamp, or clans were fighting. Instant PK. And a lot of times it was using OOC info to find targets. This really brought OOC Masquerade into popularity. Which as @Thenomain pointed out, just led to folks using alts or pages from friends to find targets.

The openness OOCly has returned to culture more trust amongst players who try to keep the hobby alive. I'm sure the avid PKers who did it for fun have found MMOs with PK grounds to kill noobs at. Also, outside of WoD, openness seems to have come also from the staff/pc trust/mistrust cultivated over the years.

Its just openness amongst the players seems to benefit the sustained culture of MU's outside of MUDs that always seem healthy. They had similar things to what everyone is saying, but it just seems MUSH and MUSE were the most affected negatively by some of the aspects.

Oddly this very conversation also helps demonstrate some of the differences the acronyms, MUSH, MUSE, MUX, MUCK .... I've known the names, but this whole thread has shed some light.

[ThatGuyThere]

@Lotherio
But there is also a system the defines the time on a MUSH as well. At least on WoD games. If all your health boxes are filled with lethal then you start bleeding out at a rate of one box turning from Lethal to aggravated per IC minute. For an average human this equals 7 minutes, for a human with max stamina and giant size merit this would be 11 minutes.
Hardly any more arbitrary then one hour, the difference a MUSH does not feel the need to have IC time equal RL time.
To me having them separate makes sense, simply looking at combat, a WoD combat round is a matter of seconds much like that for any other rpg system. The actual time needed to play this out is well more then seconds, even in table top. Pretty much every RPG book I have ever read addresses the matter of IC time not equaling RL time. If MUDs want to say it is that is fine but then also to make sure that it takes longer to travel your grid during Rush hours at least on a modern game.

[Thenomain]

@ThatGuyThere

And this is why I disagree with @Groth: There is absolutely such a thing as an arbitrary system.

My point, tho, was that having a system that doesn't work is hardly better than having no system at all, and that you must accept the conditions of a game that you play or know your limit when attempting to change it.

Also, flies, honey, vinegar.

[Apos]

@ThatGuyThere said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

To me having them separate makes sense, simply looking at combat, a WoD combat round is a matter of seconds much like that for any other rpg system. The actual time needed to play this out is well more then seconds, even in table top. Pretty much every RPG book I have ever read addresses the matter of IC time not equaling RL time. If MUDs want to say it is that is fine but then also to make sure that it takes longer to travel your grid during Rush hours at least on a modern game.

I think this really captures well what @Ganymede was talking about earlier in the simulation vs narration, which is also what I think the key cultural difference between a mush and mud. I don't think most mush players hate coded systems really (look at RfK), but they deeply resent any coded system that removes narration and applies the simulation in a way that yields an absurd result they disagree with. Where a character dies because code say it happens, even if a player can think of a dozen reasons that code doesn't make sense. It's not imo that the MUD attempt at simulation was wrong, but missing variables from a coder not thinking of them is jarring and is no longer immersive. I'm pretty sure most mush players are okay with code that would operate largely the same way a narrative would play out and just automates it, but a lot of MUDs try to take a step way past that, and then ignore mitigating circumstances. That's where I think most of the cultural pushback happens.

[Lotherio]

@Apos said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

I think this really captures well what @Ganymede was talking about earlier in the simulation vs narration, which is also what I think the key cultural difference between a mush and mud. I don't think most mush players hate coded systems really (look at RfK), but they deeply resent any coded system that removes narration and applies the simulation in a way that yields an absurd result they disagree with. Where a character dies because code say it happens, even if a player can think of a dozen reasons that code doesn't make sense. It's not imo that the MUD attempt at simulation was wrong, but missing variables from a coder not thinking of them is jarring and is no longer immersive. I'm pretty sure most mush players are okay with code that would operate largely the same way a narrative would play out and just automates it, but a lot of MUDs try to take a step way past that, and then ignore mitigating circumstances. That's where I think most of the cultural pushback happens.

I'm okay with the timing done on a MUD. While some are RPI/E, at their heart they are still a game. A simulation of RPGs more akin to the video games of the time they were born from. The one hour was arbitrary because it depends on a lot of factors, such as level of wound, how much of total HP is remaining. Its the equivalent of being poisoned in Final Fantasy I (one), where you walked around with the screen flashing, knowing your death was being timed and you had to do something before reloading from the last save point.

But on other Mu*s, I agree, even when they have internal timing and coded health on sheets, other circumstance, other factors. Sticking to the timer loses so much RP potential.

[Pandora]

On a MUSH, you're only obligated to deal with people you care to tolerate. There is less of a need for coded systems that put hard limits on things, because you don't really have to deal with something past a timeframe you're relatively comfortable with. If you give someone a wound that is definitely fatal, but allow them time to be 'dying' instead of dead, and they linger for 2+ RL weeks because they need to have one last scene with everyone they've ever met ICly in their life... well, you can't go brood in the Emo Bar (No black trench, no service) about how you killed a man today... because Joe, Bobby, and Sally are all talking about going to visit him in the hospital - tomorrow afternoon. How long is reasonable for someone to linger on? Whatever time you say will be arbitrary.

Same situation on a MUD - the victim has one hour to say their goodbyes to whoever can reach them in time. If your character wasn't logged on, you get that pocketful of angst that you didn't get to speak to Harry one last time before he took that long walk into the sunset. Is the length of the timer arbitrary? Yes. I thought the question was 'Is the length of time allowed for someone's final hour arbitrary?' which made no sense to me, because an hour is an hour. It's not a 'perfect fix' for a MUSH because on a MUSH, telling the story you want to tell is the focus, while on a MUD, telling the story happening around you from your limited perspective is the focus.

MUDs are games. You don't get to timefreeze PvP in in any real-time game. Except Fallout. V.A.T.S. is awesome.

[Gingerlily]

I know I will have a nice meaty response once I have read the entire thread because I find this topic super interesting and remember the major culture shock I experienced making the switch. I still have perspectives on rp and gaming shaped by 15 years of MUD. Had to pause though to offer a huge 'screw off' to the people who turned the convo to 'muds are rp lite, players don't care as much' Come on guys be cool. It isn't a contest.

[Kanye Qwest]

@Gingerlily
You just lost the game.

[Gingerlily]

@Kanye-Qwest I have never been good at games

[surreality]

@Gingerlily said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Had to pause though to offer a huge 'screw off' to the people who turned the convo to 'muds are rp lite, players don't care as much' Come on guys be cool. It isn't a contest.

I think it's more a translation issue really, or a 'how people approach the idea'. I suspect since MUD folk are (historically at least per the forum) less numerous here and more or less starting to come by more often and what the unspoken assumptions are are starting to come to light. Which is actually really a good thing I think, because in either group, there are buckets of them.

Weirdly, after the awkward poo-flinging awkward phase, I think a lot of good will come out of this. If nothing else, it'll bring out some clarity on various perspectives and hopefully get a lot of the unspoken stuff... well, spoken. Maybe even articulated clearly enough to go into various newbie guides and such. All of the unspoken rules tend to be something of a barrier to entry for new folks, in both mediums, I'd gather.

[Tyche]

This has been an excellent thread... well at least the first 120 posts I've read.
Thanks

[Gingerlily]

Okay! I have now read the whole thread and can reply for true, though on my phone for what that is worth. I am in total agreement that having players from MUDs check out MUXses is fabulous, the reverse would be too, they can both be incredibly fun.

Here was my culture shock. In my first scene ever seeing a line of text that read 'Eve enters from the hallway', greeting Eve in my pose, and having it explained to me that Eve was not there yet because she had not posed. At the time it made very little sense. We ignore the text emitted by the game here? Why? Now of course setting ones entrance into a scene is a crucial storytelling tool I love.

IC vs OOC is -still- tough for me. I have learned the benefits to talking and planning OOC, some great stories can come out that way. I will never get the constant casual chatter about it, never not have tons more fun learning through rp that Joebob is a double agent who killed his father than learning it when he talks about it on pub. And no, person who implied that on KD players keep secrets OOC because the game is 'hostile'. It's because some of us find exploring them in game kind of fun, that's all.

Fundamentally both types of game are cooperative storytelling, I think one of the major differences is how much collaboration is expected in order to participate.

[faraday]

@Gingerlily said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Here was my culture shock. In my first scene ever seeing a line of text that read 'Eve enters from the hallway', greeting Eve in my pose, and having it explained to me that Eve was not there yet because she had not posed. At the time it made very little sense. We ignore the text emitted by the game here? Why? Now of course setting ones entrance into a scene is a crucial storytelling tool I love.

Heh, yeah, that's a pet peeve of mine too. In AresMUSH those exit messages are emitted as OOC notifications, not IC ones. They're a useful tool, but they shouldn't be read into ICly. "Faraday walks in from the Garden..." Actually, no, Faraday just parachuted in; I just happened to have RPed in the garden last time I logged off