Marvel: 1963

[Thenomain]

HISE (How It Should Have Ended) quite commonly features the problem of "why doesn't Superman just keep saving the day". Any episode featuring or about the Superhero Cafe (Diner?) is hilarious and you should watch them. It tickles me because my analytical nerd brain can't get over the Superman Paradox, as well as "why doesn't x do y" or "why don't we kill off The Joker" and so on and so forth.

Some RPGs have answered these questions. My favorite comes from Wild Talents: "Because that's boring and athematic and also don't do that." (Wild Talents also has a system for losing faith in yourself, which is the other half of that why-not question.)

Superhero games are for certain mindsets. I hope that "1963" expresses the kind of player they're looking for up front, maybe not by saying if you're x don't come here, but by explaining what the game is meant to be about.

Signed,

• Thenomain
  (Not a Superhero Kind of Person)

[Lithium]

This isn't just about SuperMan though, it's about the fact that there are limited plots.

When there are limited plots, there is a very high chance that there will be an FC involved who can just overwhelm the problem and the OC's have nothing to really shine while doing.

In a true open world where there was infinite plots and things going on all the time then yeah OC's might have a place alongside the FC's but...

That isn't fucking reality.

Anyone trying to claim that there are enough plots and scenes going around all the time that the FC's can't, and won't, be involved in is literally sticking their head in the sand and living in a dream world of their own creation.

@Coin got to play an OC with power on a scale of an FC being a Skrull Green Lantern, congratulations, you got to be the special snowflake.

Most OC's don't get that chance or opportunity getting shut down and even when they are approved, they usually cannot meaningfully impact any scene that has FC's running around in it.

I don't know why this is so hard to understand, MU'ing is not a perfect environment. Every story does not get told. Things are not equal.... unless everyone /is/ given the same starting rules, and FC's are /built/ with the same rules as OC's.

But that doesn't seem to happen in my experience.

EDIT: And fuck you @Coin for saying I want my OC's to be as powerful as Superman. Way to try a bait and switch with an insult to go with it.

[Arkandel]

@Lithium said in Marvel: 1963:

This isn't just about SuperMan though, it's about the fact that there are limited plots.

When there are limited plots, there is a very high chance that there will be an FC involved who can just overwhelm the problem and the OC's have nothing to really shine while doing.

But again, that's not a new problem in MU'ing. If there are limited plots (there are always limited plots) and there's a level 9 guy there what's the level 5 going to do?

The real answer is... anything at all. Plots aren't puzzles, they don't get won. It's not about who solves them - or if it is, they are not that good to begin with. What can I roleplay about if there is a character present who can do stuff my character can't? Anything.

[Lithium]

@Arkandel I never once said it's a new problem.

It is a problem that is exacerbated by FC's however.

It's why /I/ prefer a game that is OC only.

[Thenomain]

@Lithium said in Marvel: 1963:

@Arkandel I never once said it's a new problem.

It is a problem that is exacerbated by FC's however.

It's why /I/ prefer a game that is OC only.

Lith.

I know we've had our differences, most of them stemming from communications, but this is what you should have lead with. You backed yourself into a corner (don't argue; your initial post was very hostile) and are now trying to explain your way out of it.

This is your point, right here.

Let's everybody pretend this is what Lithium said so we can get to the meat of this, please.

---

note: I don't have anything against leading with hostility, but I see the point being made here and we've already exhausted the "but you said it this way" part of the discussion.

Ahhem.

Moving on.

[Lithium]

@Thenomain You're probably right.

[tangent]

@Lithium Finally got a chance to read all of this. There was a time I would have agreed with you, but the bigger comic book games have had a lot of great (and powerful, since that seems important to you) original characters. Anyone who has played at HeroMux or CoMux knows the impact characters like Shift, Lunair, and Melody Kenway would have. I think that people are much more likely to give OCs a chance nowadays. Now, that being said, if you're obsessed by how powerful you can make a character, that's usually a red flag to a comicbook player. Most of us have sat through scenes where folks want to slobber all over the scene simply because some uber powerful character was available when they signed on. For OCs, mot of the time, the characters have been pretty formulaic or boring. Nowadays though, folks like I mentioned earlier have really begun to buck the system and change minds.

The more I read about these games, I just think us comic kids are a different breed.

[tangent]

And Vorpal. Crap, Vorpal is gonna be pissed. My bad, fur ball!

[ThatGuyThere]

@Coin
Well for a while in continuity at least Meta-humanity was somewhat genetically based. Not the having of powers but the potential to develop them when the stimuli occurred. That was the whole reasoning behind the Dominators wanting to take over the Earth in the Invasion crossover, to get their hands on all the potential genetic bonanza.
Granted that was well before the New 52 so no longer in continuity but I thought if was an interesting comparison to the Marvel mutants thing.

[Lithium]

@tangent Oh jeeze.

It's not about being /powerful/ (for the nth time) it's about being /relevant/.

[ThatGuyThere]

@Arkandel said in Marvel: 1963:

@Kanye-Qwest said in Marvel: 1963:

The issue is: I came out to help with all these crises and in the end Superman just punches a nuclear bomb to death and we all go for shwarma.

But that's been the case in all MU* since forever. Are level 5 characters redundant because there are level 9 characters around?

But isn't power level parity one for the big arguments of catch up xp policy and the various hard feelings toward Dinos in a lot of WoD games?
I am of the opinion that online line power discrepancy doesn't matter much, but then on superhero games I also tend to play non-powered Canon characters.

[tragedyjones]

What about FCs who are traditionally on teams together (since this is 1960s marvel, let's take the OG Avengers. You have Hulk, Thor, Iron Man (old suit), Ant-Man and The Wasp. Of these, there is a massive power differential, and yet everyone can still be relevant.

[tangent]

@Lithium Lunair isn't a powerful character. Either is Melody. Both have been more relevant than the two major DC characters. What is your definition of relevant? To me it's about making interesting stories. Generally, both FCs and OCs who have interesting RP are relevant. I feel like there's something lost in translation that I just don't get.

[Lithium]

@tangent I'm guessing we're just not seeing things the same way (Based on this idea that I am so concerned about OC's not being powerful, which is to me like projecting an idea onto what I am saying rather than my point that FC's can (and often do) trivialize the presence of OC's).

When I played on JLU it was FC's controlling practically every scene.
When I played on UU it was FC's being the OC's weren't invited or included into scenes.

Same with every other game I tried.

To be honest I stopped even trying to play on the 'consent' style games /because/ there was little recourse for the OC's to be involved. They just got overlooked, ignored, or overshadowed.

Maybe things have changed. I don't know. I don't do consent games anymore.

[tangent]

@Lithium I think you may have just been ahead of your time. And to your other point, both OCs and FCs tend to get marginalized depending on how much and how fun their RP is. All this talk about a lack of plots is confusing to me. When folks want more plots they just run one, and the rest of us join. I can't speak to other types of games. @TNP and his attempts to get me on a WoD game or something SciFi have never panned out, so maybe I'm just confused as to the culture of different genres. Like going to Holland when you don't know the language, or something.

[Lithium]

@tangent To be fair, I have been playing these games for almost 25 years now... so much of my perceptions have a /lot/ of history behind them, which may or may not be relevant today.

I'm old and jaded.

Edit: I'm trying to fathom how admitting what is potentially a fault in myself is worth a -1. LOL.

[ThatGuyThere]

One thing that I think deserves mention is that while i think there is room form Canon and original characters on a game, canon characters definitely have an advantage, not in IC power but in getting the opportunity to rp.
Most Canon characters come in with not only IC connections but also OOC fans among the player base. While people will play with both and there is definitely opportunity to find rp and shine as an OC, Canon characters do have it easier, whenever I have apped a canon character even during the app process I have gotten a lot of pages from folks wanting to set up rp, often more then I could handle in a couple of weeks of steady rp after c-gen. OCs get some offers but not as many.

[tangent]

@ThatGuyThere I would agree with that, but to me it seems temporary. I mean, if you app Batman, and you're not a very good Batman, your opportunities dwindle. If you're Paul Manning, it doesn't take very long for people to know you're a good scene. Maybe I'm myopically optimistic, but it seems mostly merit based to me.

[ThatGuyThere]

@tangent
Yeah it is temporary, if you are not fun to rp with you will quickly find yourself out of RP regardless of the base popularity of the character.
But even as a temporary situation it is a nice boost since finding early in time at a game is often a make or break thing for people sticking around.

[ixokai]

@Lithium said in Marvel: 1963:

@Coin You're choosing to miss my original point then:

If the FC's are 'Featured' /and/ more 'Powerful' than any OC can EVER be, then what is the point of trying to be involved as an OC?

First, "Featured" doesn't really mean anything. Second, who says FC's are more powerful then OC's can EVER be. That's simply a question of what staff will approve. I haven't asked the 1963 staff that question specifically but nothing I've seen suggests they wouldn't accept an OC that matched FC's in power.

EDIT to add: You later argue its not power, its relevance (but damn is your argument wandering from place to place as you try to make it--) to which I say my 25 years of MUSHing experience says relevance has a lot more to do with the player then the character, time and time again. Because a player capable of writing a fun, engaging character who adds to the environment (and this does not mean 'positive, happy, friendly') in a way that is responsive, is the sort of player whose characters end up mattering most. No matter their power level.