The Shame Game
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@VulgarKitten It's not the same at all! If someone asks for a FTB and the other person objects that person is a moron. This is known.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@Arkandel You can get a reputation as a prude (shamed for it, even) for wanting to FTB on the TS, depending on the game/players on the game. Calling them morons doesn't make it less true, even though it's true they're morons. How is it different?
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@mietze It might be a case of different circles? Or different permutations, too.
In all seriousness, saying, "Yeah, sex is a part of your character's identity, and you should figure out what your character thinks about it -- even if it is just to say 'my character is asexual'," was met with you have nothing but prurient interest in this hobby and should be removed from all games and similar.
I know I ended up with mountains of, "Who cares what you think, you're just a dumb slut," right out there in the open more or less any time I said anything about anything. (Seriously, I could have been talking about building protocols, and you would see that kind of thing pop up from multiple sources.)
The only person who more or less escaped it at the time somewhat was HR, and this is because his technical RPG lore was so far beyond everybody else at the time it became more noteworthy. (I suspect this had something to do with 'was male' as well, but outright sexism on the actual forums hasn't been as much of an issue as it has been on games, which is seriously frickin' weird to me, but I've noticed that one for a while.)
I see whisper-game stuff, but things like shrieking at people on channels with insults or piling on in that sense no matter the subject I really don't see the way I used to.
In a way, the fact that it's been reduced to whispers rather than a public pillory with piles of thrown rotten veggies is a pretty notable difference. It's far from perfect -- but it is a big, big change.
Ironically, the change you're talking about is just as big, and it does have an impact on and intersection with what you're describing. It's just more nefarious in a sense, since it isn't ever actually about what someone is actually doing -- but instead about what someone else says someone is doing.
I put this more in the defamation/character assassination category, I guess? It tends to be private whispers to destroy someone invisibly, while shaming has that whole public humiliation component to it. I'm running low on words today (I'm probably over quota) but the public/private divide on this one is a factor in my head on this issue.
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@VulgarKitten Because being shamed matters if and only if I care about the people in whose eyes my reputation was lessened. What do I care otherwise?
We will never be liked by everyone.
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@Arkandel said in The Shame Game:
@VulgarKitten It's not the same at all! If someone asks for a FTB and the other person objects that person is a moron. This is known.
This is the objective truth -- people know someone pushing after FTB is asked for is a jerk -- but that doesn't stop these people from slinging a whole lot of 'so and so is a tease/prude/backward/etc.' anyway.
There is a sad quantity of people who tend not to let silly things like facts get in the way of a good story when they want to tar-and-feather someone.
Oh fucking well.
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Well, that too, IMO is another expression of "you're just not as hardcore as me, you just can't handle real stuff, go back to your tea parties." And then "don't RP/give plot hooks to/bother with Person X. They only like fluffy bunny play and/or don't like to take consequences for their actions" (both death knells to active play for a player especially one who isn't established/does not have much of a rep).
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So really, I don't know that I believe there is less shaming or even that it's functionally different. The goal is to destroy reputation/get people to not play with that person as well as ego strokes for one's own play/elevating one's own status.
And yes, I guess it only matters truly personally if you care about the person doing the shaming--but on an online game where rep can deny you access to even basic interaction if someone has poisoned the well enough (Because most people won't bother to make their own assessment, unless said poisoner starts doing it to them and they realize that maybe the problem is that person)--it does matter, if you want to play in that location and not hide who you are. Which can be problematic because in building contacts with people, that subject often comes up. So it's...complicated, I guess.
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@mietze I think maybe I see it more as the difference between 'shunning' (which can be private/whisper-game or public) and shaming (public humiliation)?
I see what you're saying, and I don't disagree about the harmfulness of it, but one of the essential elements of shaming is the whole 'public, target is aware of it' things on some level -- the whisper-game horribleness people seem to want to not let the target find out about in most cases I've seen.
The whisper-game stuff like that is sometimes actionable on games, too; it depends on the game, but I know some have very low tolerance for that kind of exclusionary behavior, which -- at least ideally -- tells me that people at least abstractly understand that it is not good behavior on multiple levels. (Whether games enforce it or not, or are aware of it or not, is another ball of wax, too.
)Oh fucking well.
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No. Absolutely the whisper campaign is meant for the target to know about. Shunning isn't fun unless it's very clear that that person knows that they are unwelcome; I've never seen it not occur without the PA taunts on channel or in scenes, ect. I have never seen a whisper campaign that ever was hidden. People aren't stupid, everyone knows damn well that anything said in page/semi-public channel/or skype always gets back. That is part of the point.
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@surreality This is also true - but if people want to trash talk they will. You don't have to withhold TS from them, often times you need not do something special to deserve it other than to exist.
Caring about the opinions of others in such a context empowers them. If we do we relinquishing power over our state of mind and self worth to folks who are not worth it.
I pay a lot of heed to criticism and points made by folks I deem worthy of my respect. It doesn't matter if they like me, but I need to know I hold them in high regard first.
The rest... well, the rest are just white noise generators when it comes to their actual emotional impact on my day.
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@mietze Gotcha; I'm thinking of something else, in that case. I have seen what you're describing in the 'public shunning' sense. I was definitely thinking of the more 'poison the well rumor mill' thing.
I've seen way too much:
Y says, "Here is what X just said about you!"
X says, "OMG I would never do that you know that Y is a total lying bitch! I would never say such things about you!"
...in different windows at the same time, or in pages at the same time, etc.It's partly why I try to do a lot of 'observe directly before coming to a conclusion' for at least a while if I can. Admittedly, this has left me dealing with a pile of assholes others have warned me about, but has also given me a lot of great RP partners that others have warned me about, and the latter makes dealing with the former worth the effort.
Shunning tends to be about exclusion of a person (and finding some excuse to do it, no matter how flimsy) more than change (of a behavior), and exclusion is just... bleah all around.
@Arkandel said in The Shame Game:
@surreality This is also true - but if people want to trash talk they will. You don't have to withhold TS from them, often times you need not do something special to deserve it other than to exist.
Caring about the opinions of others in such a context empowers them. If we do we relinquishing power over our state of mind and self worth to folks who are not worth it.
I pay a lot of heed to criticism and points made by folks I deem worthy of my respect. It doesn't matter if they like me, but I need to know I hold them in high regard first.
The rest... well, the rest are just white noise generators when it comes to their actual emotional impact on my day.
...pretty much. (And there I went and 'me too'd' a post after... siiiiigh. Ahem. Anyway.)
I also know that some folks I hold in high regard can be wrong sometimes. Heck, there's a friend of mine I would trust with my life RL, but I think he's dead wrong in regard to one specific person and their motives and behaviors; even the best folk can have some major blind spots. He and I have observed that person in different circumstances, though, and that third person treats us both very differently, so I can't really fault him for not sharing my opinion, and so on. Happens a lot, really.
Oh fucking well.
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@surreality Oh, absolutely. People are complicated, sometimes we like or dislike each other based on the most arbitrary criteria and that's just the way it is.
I think it's good to know our limitations. For example I can come off as pretty condescending when I'm trying to make a point - perhaps in this very post - which is something I'm trying to regulate. Now and then I even ask a few trusted friends if a post of mine is coming off in a way I didn't mean to. Either way though and as a result of that (or other personality quirks, flaws or just characteristics) I'm pretty sure even some people right here aren't huge fans of mine (but they are misguided fools) even among those I do hold in high esteem.
It's not an exchange. They don't need to like me first and if they do I don't have to return the favor. And that doesn't mean they're right or wrong about me either - in fact I don't even know that it means anything at all.
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@surreality said in The Shame Game:
"Who should listen to you? You're just a stupid perv." <-- that kind of thing was incredibly common.
It was also stupid.
None of those people ever backed down, though. Nobody stopped admitting it. Nobody crawled off to die in a hole. None ever talked about it any differently then than is done now. People stood their ground because they were found nothing wrong with standing there, even when it wasn't comfortable.
Time passed. Shit changed. People grew up. (OK, most people grew up; there are still some folks stuck in the 90s on this one, but they're now as rare as the handful were back then.) You don't really see the hatefest toward anyone who considers TS as potentially a part of RP for whatever reason in the same way.
Sometimes the behavior being shamed is stupid. Sometimes it's the shaming itself that is the behavior that is actually stupid.
Things probably eased up because, over time, even basement-bound nerds can get a little something-something.
And shame on the idiot who decided to shame people for liking to give oral sex. YOU ARE JESUS'S PEOPLE.
TL;DR: People need to offer oral sex more often.
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@VulgarKitten said in The Shame Game:
@Arkandel And the opposite of that 'hey do you mind if we FTB on this sexy times stuff?' SHAME that chick is such a prude. It's just a game. You're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't, depending on the person.
I think this pretty much applies to any situation in which someone is engaging in RP behavior that others decide (for good or ill) is worth shaming.
"If you stand for nothing Burr, what will you fall for?"
-- Hamilton: An American Musical -
@Cupcake said in The Shame Game:
@VulgarKitten said in The Shame Game:
@Arkandel And the opposite of that 'hey do you mind if we FTB on this sexy times stuff?' SHAME that chick is such a prude. It's just a game. You're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't, depending on the person.
I think this pretty much applies to any situation in which someone is engaging in RP behavior that others decide (for good or ill) is worth shaming.
This one right here is where I always point back to the 'pretendy fun times' thing.
I mean, ultimately?
Who cares if somebody likes RPing sex. Or cooking dinner. Or killing monsters. Or going to the prom. Or whatever, really.
This always irked me even more when whatever the activity is is ultimately a case of 'two people go off to a private space where they aren't bothering anybody at all to paint each other's IC toenails/read each other's' tarot cards/watch a movie/juggle chainsaws/etc.' I mean seriously. 'People are spending too much time off in private away from the group that needs them' can be valid in extreme cases of time spent away from IC responsibilities, but really isn't more often than not. What they're doing in private just doesn't matter and is so never ever going to matter.
But people want to make it matter when it's some things, and not when it's others, and exactly... it's so arbitrary.
The solution is simple, too. "Hey, X? There's some plot stuff folks want you to set aside some time to address/folks need to meet with you to be able to move forward with their characters in the faction/etc. When can we do that?"
Set a time, run with it, handled. Easy and zero drama, everybody gets what they want.
If, that is, that's the real motive for the behavior.
Part of what's so frustrating about the excuse people use for this gossipy crap is that it's a 'problem' that's very easy to solve if you're dealing with someone who has even the slightest shred of responsibility.
Which means it's really just gossipy crap for the sake of gossipy crap with a flimsy excuse to hide behind to try to get away with being gossipy twits.
This is admittedly one of the things I also get very growly about; I don't like the high school gossipy headgame crap, and even when it's people I adore engaging in it, there is a part of me that just cringes internally at best. (I actually hate it more when my friends do it than when it's done to my friends. My friends can defend themselves; I don't like having to defend people from my friends, but I will, and shit, that's awkward.)
@Ganymede said in The Shame Game:
Things probably eased up because, over time, even basement-bound nerds can get a little something-something.
Or enough of 'em got caught at it it wasn't worth trying to hide any more.
Oh fucking well.
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@surreality said in The Shame Game:
Or enough of 'em got caught at it it wasn't worth trying to hide any more.
Honey, no one wants to catch basement-bound nerds getting a little something-something, not even other basement-bound nerds.
And that's shaming, folks.
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@VulgarKitten said in The Shame Game:
@Arkandel You can get a reputation as a prude (shamed for it, even) for wanting to FTB on the TS, depending on the game/players on the game. Calling them morons doesn't make it less true, even though it's true they're morons. How is it different?
Or worse: you have a character who doesn't have sex for IC reasons. This was the case when I tried playing on Kushiel's Debut. My character was sister to the Cruarch and thus, her first born son would be the next... and not being Terre d'Ange meant that she didn't get the luck of not having kids until she prayed to a goddess (btw, loved the books, but always thought that was a bit silly).
In the time I was there, it became next to impossible to find RP. It's like people found out my char wouldn't be up for sexytiem, so I was just written off as someone to never RP with. Which sucked since, yo, Alban Diplomat. Should've been able to get in all kinds of plot and intrigue and politics, but noooo.
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Okay... since the subject of ganging up on people came up, I feel like I should clarify what I wrote earlier. I do not condone mob mentality/ganging up on people and I realize that my original response might have made it come across like I do. I apologize to anyone who might have gotten that impression from what I said.
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@mietze said in The Shame Game:
No. Absolutely the whisper campaign is meant for the target to know about. Shunning isn't fun unless it's very clear that that person knows that they are unwelcome; I've never seen it not occur without the PA taunts on channel or in scenes, ect. I have never seen a whisper campaign that ever was hidden. People aren't stupid, everyone knows damn well that anything said in page/semi-public channel/or skype always gets back. That is part of the point.
I was the victim of a shunning campaign at Castle Marrach. The ringleader of the campaign was someone who RPed with me specifically to find out who else I might be RPing with so they could send private messages to said person that boiled down to "Don't play with WTFE! He's a psycho!"
This was definitely kept on the quiet for months. The only reason I found out about it was that she paged that to one of my (very new, so word hadn't spread yet from staff whose alt it was) alts when I, in character, mentioned my main character.
Sometimes the whisper campaigns are meant to be like the so-called "hellbans" of Reddit and Github.
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@Ganymede What I mean is that all opinions are weighed according to personal beliefs. Just because someone wrote a book on something doesn't mean it gives that opinion weight to /everyone/.
If I don't agree with the book, then that opinion has no weight to me.
It's a simple matter of perception. If I like a person then I am probably going to place more weight on their opinion than if I do not. Where as someone who has a different belief or different like, is probably going to put a different weight on that opinion.
In a vacuum however, all opinions have the same weight.
Any additional weight is added on by the individual.
As for what sort of society we live in, all I have to say is this: Politics shows just what crazy things people put weight on for them.
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