The Shame Game
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@ixokai Apparently it matters when people are less than thrilled at someone telling people to go kill themselves.
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@silentsophia Hey I'm not saying people shouldn't downvote. I'm asking why the hell anyone cares if they're downvoted.
Its a silly number on the internet. It doesn't actually silence anyone from saying whatever stupid thing they want to say.
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I think it's rather dismal to make sport of one's grievances. I won't pretend that I'm above it all, but if anything, I think that's something worth a good deal of self-shame when indulged in.
Naming and shaming people does serve a purpose, and a good one at that. I'm a firm believer that if something or someone is bothering you, you should not keep it quiet, but shout it out. Preferably politely and constructively, but beating around the bush is just as unhelpful as flinging shit.
The 'culture of bitching' that's been explained to me as an integral part of these boards, while perhaps cathartic for some, is really not something I consider healthy or productive for anyone involved. Why bitch for the sake of bitching? Why get angry for the sake of being angry? Say and feel things because you actually feel and care about them. That, I think, is worth a lot more respect, and will make you feel better to boot.
Ultimately this is the internet and I don't expect people to use it as an outlet for their humanity. Lawrd knows I've occasionally been known to troll. But I think it pays, when you feel the need to shame someone, to try and connect with them as a person, first.
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@ixokai said in The Shame Game:
@Pandora said in The Shame Game:
The Shame Game on MSB is pretty amusing as long as you don't take it too seriously. I participated in a thread in the Hog Pit and through nothing but trying to explain my points of view wound up at like -124 reputation. Having a differing opinion on MSB is something to be ashamed of then?
I really don't get why people care that this internet number goes up or down, or it their post's number goes up or down, but evidentially this internet number matters to people.
It's funny she mentioned that, though, most of my reputation points are either from making puns at someone else's expense but more substantially from constructive statements I may have made about a topic or another.
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@ixokai Pretty sure Pandora doesn't give half a shit if you downvote her every post. I certainly don't...care if you downvote her every post.
But no, really, does anyone care?
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@Kanye-Qwest said in The Shame Game:
@ixokai Pretty sure Pandora doesn't give half a shit if you downvote her every post. I certainly don't...care if you downvote her every post.
But no, really, does anyone care?
http://musoapbox.net/topic/988/the-100-the-mush/240
This seems like caring. Not like, a lot, but caring.
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@ixokai So, satisfying a curiosity or asking someone to explain the reason they did something is caring? Sure, to a degree. But not what it seemed like you meant by "caring" earlier in the thread.
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@Kanye-Qwest said in The Shame Game:
@ixokai So, satisfying a curiosity or asking someone to explain the reason they did something is caring? Sure, to a degree. But not what it seemed like you meant by "caring" earlier in the thread.
You're just the most recent time I've noticed people taking issue with their number getting bigger or smaller and I just don't understand it.
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@ixokai But I wasn't taking issue with my number getting bigger or smaller. I was asking about someone else's post. Whatevs. Carry on, my wayward sons.
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@Kanye-Qwest said in The Shame Game:
Carry on, my wayward sons.
Why do you earworm me??
In regards to down vote/up vote... I don't really factor in those numbers unless they get an absolute value of 5.
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I'm putting this out of order for a reason to break up the quotes to slim down the responses.
@Kestrel said in The Shame Game:
I think it's rather dismal to make sport of one's grievances.
@Kestrel said:
The 'culture of bitching' that's been explained to me as an integral part of these boards, while perhaps cathartic for some, is really not something I consider healthy or productive for anyone involved. Why bitch for the sake of bitching? Why get angry for the sake of being angry?
Frankly, you're reading into things. This is what you're looking at:
@ThatGuyThere said in The 100: The Mush:
@Kestrel
One thing I think you forget is that this place basically exists for bitching. Granted in current form it is far more constructive then past edition but it is still the offspring of WORA.
So yes most conversation here is in the negative it is most likely going to be like that for any game.'Exists for bitching' does not mean 'exists for bitching for the sake of bitching' or 'getting angry for the sake of being angry'.
That is you reading into the statement and not what is being said. You are adding these negative connotations and assumptions 100% on your own that are nowhere in the statement you are citing.
Both of the things you're noting are, in fact, things that people were rapidly running out of patience with on WORA. It's why things are considerably different here, yet both places serve a useful purpose:
@Kestrel said:
Say and feel things because you actually feel and care about them. That, I think, is worth a lot more respect, and will make you feel better to boot.
Oh, hey, that's a quote from you, too, huh?
So's this one:
Naming and shaming people does serve a purpose, and a good one at that. I'm a firm believer that if something or someone is bothering you, you should not keep it quiet, but shout it out. Preferably politely and constructively, but beating around the bush is just as unhelpful as flinging shit.
On an actual game, this is generally considered bitching. The level of criticism, the depth of conversation, and the blunt commentary is generally not welcome on the game itself.
There are reasons for this.
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Plenty of people simply don't care one way or the other and you're cluttering up their screen with a pile of OOC conversation on a channel or similar that they give precisely zero fucks about. That's annoying as hell and pretty rude to other players. The same is true of positive meta-discussion of the game for many. 90% of people just don't even want to hear it either way and to force it on them while they're trying to chill out and play a game on a channel is pretty fucking crass, selfish behavior, especially at the lengths to which people discuss something to death here.
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...but negative meta-discussion of a game can also create a commiseration spiral or breed needless paranoia. That's also generally not a good thing.
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Historically speaking, most games don't even allow this kind of discussion on the game itself or on forums for the game. The Haven thread is a current example of this. Games don't typically ban people for this shit now, because more actual adults run games these days than was once the case, but this was dazzlingly typical in yon days of yore.
So while you can attempt to shame this board with a holier-than-thou analysis, it's not really having the impact you think it will. That, or you grossly misunderstand what you were told and read far too much into it (read: a pile of negative things that were not said).
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I can and will not speak for others. I can and will, however, speak for myself.
I don't believe that shaming changes anything essential in a person. Shamed people will not suddenly say "I was wrong all along; I will mend my ways". Belief in this is nonsense.
Yet…
There remains an effect that can lead to change, even in a person's essentials. See, many of our behaviours are ingrained habits which have internalized to the point of being identity. Shaming people's behaviours gets them to stop doing it (whether they agree with the change or not). If it gets them to stop doing it long enough, the habit is replaced by a new habit; presumably one that is less offensive to the people around them (however you define "around them").
Basically, if there's enough removed positive reinforcement in a person's social group, behaviours--and eventually attitudes--will change. The key word there is "enough". And it depends also on the perceived social group.
So the shame game here can have an effect. It's not guaranteed to, but it is an ingredient in effecting change. The fact that it is also fun for the people playing it is a bit of icing.
(This is over and above the other reasons cited above like documenting misbehaviour, providing an "audit trail" so to speak, providing a voice in a forum not controlled by game owners, etc. These, too, are an issue. I'm just specifically addressing the "shame" angle.)
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I think there is comfort too in realizing that you're not alone. Especially when you've been targeted by people in game who are behaving horribly. As much as my experience on an Ashes subgroup sucked? I will say that after I got back from a 4 year mush hiatus it was actually comforting to see that no, I was not treated that way because I was a bad person or did something to make them treat me that way but because that's how they divided and conquered and treated a lot of good people that way. It made me a lot more willing to reach out/speak up when I saw ooc environment stuff, so that others wouldn't need to feel alone as well as making sure that I am trying respectful and kind in communicating with others in game.
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@Kestrel said in The Shame Game:
Say and feel things because you actually feel and care about them. That, I think, is worth a lot more respect, and will make you feel better to boot.
People actually seem to respect me more as an unfeeling robot. When they get to know me, it's like they forget about this persona entirely.
If upvoting is any indication, people here seem to care more if they are amused with or connect with what you have to say, rather than whether or not they give a shit about who said it.
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@ixokai said in The Shame Game:
I really don't get why people care that this internet number goes up or down, or it their post's number goes up or down, but evidentially this internet number matters to people.
I don't think anyone actually cares about the upvote/downvote number as a whole, but if you get downvoted too far below 0, you stop being able to post as often, which can be a hindrance if you're say on a quick break at work and looking to respond in two different threads you're active in. Downvotes are punitive, not just indicative.
@Kanye-Qwest said in The Shame Game:
@Pandora I mean I think you were also telling people to kill themselves in that thread. Which, yes, could count as a differing opinion but let's not be DISINGENUOUS now.
I told someone to kill herself about a year or so ago outside of MSB and then stopped speaking to her entirely. She sent a half-assed apology note a year ago, I didn't accept her apology & then suddenly she was on here bitching about me like I'd done something to her in recent history. Yeah, telling her to kill herself was mean and bad and whatnot, but dredging up ancient history because you want pity from internet strangers is BS.
@deadculture said in The Shame Game:
It's funny she mentioned that, though, most of my reputation points are either from making puns at someone else's expense but more substantially from constructive statements I may have made about a topic or another.
Obviously constructive statements/comments are going to be upvoted for the most part, my point is that MSB in no way requires one to be constructive or meaningful, all it takes is being willing and able to say 'I agree!' a lot if you decide you care about upvotes.
Saying one doesn't care about upvotes/downvotes is disingenuous if you actually bother giving them, or if you happen to know offhand where yours have come from. That indicates some level of caring, even if somehow on the internet, 'caring' has become some pithy layman's sport that no one in their right mind would dare admit they participate in.
Tinuviel about 9 hours ago
I hate you with the power of a thousand Pandoras. -
@Pandora Well, no, it doesn't. And I do agree with that point of yours; it was a point of contention in another thread -- that the consensus is highly sought after here and agreement tends to be more rewarding than disagreement (even when more politely worded).
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It's weird: I've disagreed with some of the biggest names on the board and I don't get hundreds of downvotes. It's almost as if how you disagree is more important than the mere fact of it.
Generally (not always) when I disagree with people I don't come across as a psychotic hunched over my keyboard holding an axe and quietly muttering "blood, blood, blood" to myself. There may be a lesson in here for those who lose over a hundred in a day…
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Is down voting really shaming? I mean, it's hard to imagine a less effective form of feedback. Even on sites where the down-vote is more measured and more meaningful it doesn't represent anything more critical than "I don't think this view is worth consideration". I think it's petty to consider that shaming.
It's nothing compared to the direct reply. For instance, the offhanded desire of someone else's death, which I understand has been done on occasion. Pointing out someone who does that? That's shaming, and well-deserved at that.
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Shit. Pressed the arrow pointing the wrong direction!
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When it comes to the Hog Pit, the 'shame game ' isn't really at play, save for maybe horrible descs. Unfortunately, there are plenty of roleplayers on MUs who use the semi-anonymity (or at least, the fact no one knows who or where they are) as a means to pull some very petty, creepy, self-centered, or outright rude stuff. Some of these players cheat on their games, or harass other players into doing what they want.
Unfortunately, some players take this golden opportunity of anonymity and opt to, rather than be chill, to pull some self-centered bullshit at others' expense, and sometimes the only way to get a pinky finger under the problem and hoping it will stop is the Hog Pit.
Relating what happens here to 'shaming' in a modern Social Justice Warrior sense might infer that what's happening here isn't, at times, the only way justice can be meted out in this hobby. Like the post a few months ago where people were calling out the guy for ooc rapey behavior, or the Rick Sanchez types.
Can you think of a situation where you have mistreated others on a game and gotten away with it, or perhaps a situation where you were mistreated and due to staff/player collusion had no choice to leave a game or dislike it? Are there any staffers you avoid? Why?
You're one of us
