An-E-May
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Why the fuck is everyone recommending Fate/Anything? Seriously? Even as a dude I wanted to punch the protagonist of Fate/Zero in the face for being a total fucking tool/white knight. Especially when said person has demonstrated time and time again to be way fucking better than the 'hero' in every single fucking way, both emotionally, physically, and ya know, the fact that they are a HERO. Fate/Stay Night is significantly better than Fate/Zero, but the problem is that as much as I want them not to be- they are related.. and Fate/Zero is not something I would ever recommend to a self-respecting woman unless I specifically wanted them to HATE it. Edit:For Thread Continuity, Fate/Stay Night is actually the bad egg, just a mix up.
For a person who has gone down the rabbit hole, and seen almost everything and gone- wow most of this is unadulterated shit... but is also looking for some good wholesome Anime fun that isn't 24/7 fan-service, or just blatantly horrendously sexist or pedophilic..
Instead- a lot of the Anime's you've watched, and seemingly enjoyed, have strong Female protagonists, or at least, interesting ones.. as such I'll be sure to tailor my list to involve them. Marked with an *
Good Animes-
Drama/Romance/Detective Noir-
***Chihayafuru-They play this weird Poetry card game- also... generally a lot of subdued Drama, romance, etc.
***ToraDora!- Non-Standard Harem thing happening here. Weird because at the end- the only Harem anime I could recommend pretty much universally because at the end of the series, the guy CHOOSES a girl instead of it being a weird status quo.
Psychic Detective Yakamo- Ghost Detective Stuff
Un-Go- Supernatural Detective stuff
Baccano! and DuraDura! are both I think either by the same company or same author, so definitely, I highly recommend both.
Psycho Pass-Weird Dystopian future involving peoples psychological states determining whether they go to 'jail' or not?
Monster-Doctor looking to kill a patient he really shouldn't of saved. A rather deep rabbit hole. (Those zany Eastern Germans)
Mawaru Penguindrum-The Weirdest and saddest shit I've ever seen.
Itazura na Kiss-I.. alright, listen, I'm a sucker for soapy romances.
Tonari no Kaibutsu-kun- A really big sucker.
More Comedy-Skit/Slice of Life
Barakamon- Probably an outlier, but hey, an anime about calligraphy? Sign me the fuck up.
Uchouten Kazoku- JAPANESE World of Darkness, but instead of vampires, its Tanuki and those flying bird dudes whose name I can't remember. Quite funny. Tengri? Tengi? TENGU
Servant X Service- God the name just gets me every time, it makes one think of something pornographic.. but its not.. its just a slice of life- another day at the office comedy. Standard Japanese stereotypes about women, but hey, at least they are not.. egregious.. totally..More Actiony
Outlaw Star is another one of the classics to go after.. (Especially if your a Champloo/Bebop fan
Zetsuon no Tempest*-As said before in other posts.
Kaze No Stigma*-The few women I've shown it to seem to like it.
****Tokyo Esp-It ain't terrible.
Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit-Just started watching, up to 3rd episode, Pretty good so far. This woman is a badass.
Heroic Age-I got nothing, it has been so long sense I've seen this one.
Tengen toppa gurren lagann – Know your Memes?
Tiger & Bunny- The only Anime that I know for a fact paid for itself by the first episode, the fact that it was any good at all is also just amazing. Corporate Sponsored Superheros who are rated based on the number of captures/whatever? It is more fun, and far weirder than it sounds.I've learned a lot about myself it seems, I have the same exact tastes as a woman my age for Anime if I go by Advertised Genre/Demographic and what I enjoy.
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Why the fuck is everyone recommending Fate/Anything? Seriously? Even as a dude I wanted to punch the protagonist of Fate/Zero in the face for being a total fucking tool/white knight. Fate/Stay Night is significantly better than Fate/Zero, but the problem is that as much as I want them not to be- they are related.. and Fate/Zero is not something I would ever recommend to a self-respecting woman unless I specifically wanted them to HATE it.
...what the fuck are you on about? That made virtually no sense.
And fuck, did we ever get ignore added back in? I knew I was missing something.
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Seriously? Saber? The Main Character? How he tries to 'protect' her? How can that not ring hollow for you?
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I thought the characters made sense and everything played out in a reasonable manner.
Fate/Zero was entertaining.
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Sorry, wrong one. I'm confusing Fate/Night Stay with Fate/Zero, got them reversed.
Fate/Zero is indeed good.
Fate/Night Stay is the one my complaint is levied against. MY bad!@HelloRaptor said:
...what the fuck are you on about? That made virtually no sense.
And fuck, did we ever get ignore added back in? I knew I was missing something.
It would of made more sense if I actually labeled what I was complaining about correctly, but even than, its the same universe/same people who make it.. its really hard to swallow the pill.
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That makes marginally more sense. Except at no point is there actually the suggestion in the narrative that Saber needs to be protected, and pretty much everyone else in the entire story routinely treats Emiya like a weirdo for acting that way. Even Archer takes him to task for it. You've clearly seen enough to get the implication I'm slapping you in the face with there.
She's never treated like a weakling, and what moments of weakness she does have are pretty blatantly due to as yet unrevealed plot points. She routinely holds her own or bests the other Heroic Spirits, who by and large treat her with varying degrees of respect or wariness she deserves. The times she saves his life outnumber the opposite by a pretty wide margin, and the times he 'saves' hers are frequently unnecessary.
Yes, the main character has a massive white knight complex, but it's never shown to be the case that it's justified. It's just something that's a quirk of his world view. If you seriously think that a story is sexist because it includes characters who are sexist, I weep for you. And before you mention any romantic inclinations that might spark out of his white knight behavior, I'll point out that it's almost always driven home that appreciating the impulse to protect them isn't the same as saying they need to be protected, and any such feelings are followed swiftly by beating him up or trying to leave him behind so he'll stop being an idiot.
Anime is certainly full of shows that showcase the full range of Women Are Helpless Dolls Who Need Saving By A Strong Man, but the Fate series (yes, even that one) isn't really like that. The only ones who get treated like fragile dolls in a narrative sense are the ones who are actually, literally, homunculi with frail constitutions.* And there's at most two of those given any air time.
For kicks, here's seven full minutes of Saber fighting toe to toe with Berserker, and the closest Emiya gets to 'saving' her is the handful of seconds where he's dragging her off because he knows the magical equivalent of a tactical nuke is about to be dropped. A tactical nuke fired by another wildly powerful character that does less damage to Berserker than Saber's half-potency attack earlier in the same encounter.
Yes, he's kind of an ignorant little shit with a hero complex, and everyone berates him for it at one time or another. It's a character flaw. The fact that a couple of times it turns out his actions are necessary, like when someone has already been a total fucking badass and isn't up for round two, it's a stopped clock being right twice a day, not presented as any vindication of his position.
But hey, all of that aside, at least they put her in hyper sexualized, skin tight armor, right? No? Well, at least it's still a dress, you can probably make something out of that if you want.
It's nice of you to once again declare yourself the champion of women everywhere, stomping your foot and raising your fist to let them know what they should be offended and turned off by, but even leaving aside how ridiculous you are, you're pretty far off the mark here. Very gentlemanly of you to try and protect the delicate sensibilities of the women folk from being upset by this.
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Oh, HR, your frothing warms the cockles of my heart. It's like absolute reason leaves your system the instant you see me post! It's too bad I can't quote you anymore because I've lost my archival sources.
So, to be clear HR, your argument is.. I'm a White knight becuase I'm pointing out how fucking dumb it is that the main character is a White Knight? Oh goodness. Oh Gracious. This is some inception level shit. A thought however... I've made no such declaration to the extent that I am a 'champion' of anything, however, you like to interpret the fact that I am these things, because it makes it easier for you to justify your cruel hatred. I just want to be friends HR!, I mean, I must of REALLY pissed you off in the Consent V Non-consent thread that you now will try and take me apart in order to get back at it. DO you like hurting my feelings? So cruel, so cruel.
The crux of my argument however is- The main Character of Fate/Night Stay is a tool, hes a white knight and is too dumb to live. The fact that this is a main character- is sexist? Fine, but I'm not not White Knighting all women everywhere. I'm saying, OH ITS HORRIBLE, this man is sexist. No, what I'm saying is hes a FUCKING IDIOT, and the show is focused on him! You can claim the show is fucking great all you want, but if one of the two main characters is painful to watch.. it RUINS the show. If you enjoy watching idiots, by all means, go for it man! You are allowed your guilty pleasures!
Just like Brilliant Park is a guilty pleasure for me!
My suggestions that were above were specifically designed for someone that doesn't want to go too far down the rabbit hole. in how weird Japanese Anime can get. Again, not white knighting, but hey, you can interpret however you want. Just keep in mind, some of the Anime's I've suggested? Do in fact have female objectification as well, they also include protagonists who are also not too dumb to live. I'll be an unrepentant Feminist to, just on general principal man. Sorry that it upsets you! Which, ya know, semantically is different from say... White Knighting, because when people do dumb shit, I let them suffer the consequences! Too bad I'm not white knighting you right now and just enjoying the view of ow you causing perpetual train wrecks from your mouth attributing things to me that I don't actually say! You just make whatever argument makes you feel best dude, I'll be your Joker HR! I'll be your Joker!
See Below: Spitfire gets me.
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You don't have to like the show. There's plenty about it that people dislike, and even if I don't agree, that doesn't make them idiots.
You're exactly what I described you as because of dumb shit like this, and it's hardly the first time you've declared yourself the authority on what any self-respecting woman would like or hate.
Fate/Zero is not something I would ever recommend to a self-respecting woman unless I specifically wanted them to HATE it.
Yeah, why would any self-respecting woman enjoy a show that routinely lampoons the main character's white knight, women-shouldn't-fight complex as ridiculous, and showcases virtually every other character with more than a few minutes of screen time pointing out how wrong he is, and how competent and badass the majority of the women are? I can't even imagine. </sarcasm>
You are allowed your guilty pleasures!
I've got plenty of pleasures, and I'm not terribly guilty about most of them. I enjoyed the completely ridiculous power fantasy that was Mahouka, and didn't bat an eye at most anything in No Game No Life. I am really easily entertained, so I don't by any means expect that anything I like is actually super good.
That doesn't mean your characterization of the show itself isn't shit, even if you're more or less right about one of the primary characters.
So, to be clear HR, your argument is.. I'm a White knight becuase I'm pointing out how fucking dumb it is that the main character is a White Knight?
If you really don't see how you declaring that no self-respecting woman would enjoy a show because <insert virtually anything at all, but especially a show where a male savior complex is routinely shown to be completely misguided and unnecessary within its narrative> makes you a big of a shield pounding white knight as that character is, there's no help for you.
Since you seem to have trouble grasping it, I don't think you're a white knight because you're pointing out that the main character is one. I said as much myself. It's a recurring point that everyone in the show thinks it's stupid too. I think it because, and here I'll quote it for you again:
Fate/Zero is not something I would ever recommend to a self-respecting woman unless I specifically wanted them to HATE it.
Maybe they'd hate it. Maybe they wouldn't. I don't really feel like I'm in a position to say which, let alone claiming that their enjoyment of it would have any bearing on their self-respect. But if that's working out for you, you go on with your bad self.
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I just have to say.. I am, apparently, not a self-respecting woman. I really like the Fate/ serieses (series'? THere's multiple ones of them!). The main is insanely white knight which I find kinda cute.
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Oh, man! I'm glad you've managed to make a post that is a bit less rabid machine gunning aggression and more focused. This actually makes it a lot harder! Alright lets see.. A selective attack on certain lines. Not bad! This will actually require effort to take apart.. so let us begin! It's fun when you get serious.
@HelloRaptor said:Yeah, why would any self-respecting woman enjoy a show that routinely lampoons the main character's white knight, women-shouldn't-fight complex as ridiculous, and showcases virtually every other character with more than a few minutes of screen time pointing out how wrong he is, and how competent and badass the majority of the women are? I can't even imagine. </sarcasm>
That doesn't mean your characterization of the show itself isn't shit, even if you're more or less right about one of the primary characters.
If you really don't see how you declaring that no self-respecting woman would enjoy a show because <insert virtually anything at all, but especially a show where a male savior complex is routinely shown to be completely misguided and unnecessary within its narrative> makes you a big of a shield pounding white knight as that character is, there's no help for you.You say Routinely Lampoons, however, at the end of the day, all the women fall in love with him, stay at his house that he inherited from his parental figure, and keep hanging out with him. You can say that yes, they criticize him for being in over-his head stupid, but they don't actually change their behaviors with him, if anything, they actually seek out his attention for THEM instead..... Of course, that wasn't the actual point of my argument, which you seem to have misrepresented.. Your point about my argument is..
You're exactly what I described you as because of dumb shit like this, and it's hardly the first time you've declared yourself the authority on what any self-respecting woman would like or hate.
My point more along the lines is- if you're a woman who doesn't like it when men White-knight for you? Your going to end up hating this show. It is not going to be a pleasurable experience for said individual who watches it. I used the phrase self-respecting, because hey it seems appropriate. Of course, you can interpret it a me trying to defend all womanhood, but the reality is, the statement stands more as a warning about what you should expect from the anime in question, and if your the sort who is 'self-respecting', you probably shouldn't watch it!. It's not the same exact thing as, hey if your husband was murdered by xyz, you probably should lay off watching movies about spousal homicide.
It's not a good analysis, nor a perfect trope but it is fairly correct. I"m again, not championing anything, I just took a point of argument you disagreed with, and in your infinite wisdom you assumed I was making some broad sweeping statement about the concepts of life and wisdom and equality. It's not, its a statement about a show, that has a douchenozzle character- that if you you are a woman who dislikes certain behaviors, you won't like the show.. very simple. Perhaps I used poor language choice, but your the one who made the jump that I'm speaking on behalf of all women everywhere, or are trying to do something I'm not...
HOWEVER!I can do that if you want, but Fate/Night Stay is not the biggest problem with anime I have. It is just one of the more annoying ones. The bigger problems are far more insidious. I can make broad sweeping generalizations statements on women's behalf if you want those? I mean it's the least I can do! I don't want to fail living up to your expectations as randomly championing other people for no reason because I'm the white knight of everything, instead of just some dude who tends to stand on principles.
Of course I'll just leave you with your own words again, because I'm unimaginative in this regard.
Maybe they'd hate it. Maybe they wouldn't. I don't really feel like I'm in a position to say which, let alone claiming that their enjoyment of it would have any bearing on their self-respect. But if that's working out for you, you go on with your bad self.
I think its a good point to leave it off on.
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And just think, if you'd started with that instead of backpedaling to it, you'd have missed out on yet another chance to show us all what a super dedicated feminist you are. A++ performance.
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Cunning, but false, friend. I made no such oversweeping claims, you did. I just reinforced what my position was.
A Good Analogy for your behavior would be... oh what is it..
Me claiming to be good at a Martial arts..
You go, So you've won tournaments and are a black-belt?
I go- No I've participated in tournaments but never placed.
To which you'd than say exactly what you said above. That I'm backpedaling.Nay, I've just clarified my position so you understood it better. just as the above example clarified. As I've said, its not a general sweeping statement about women, you just interpreted it as such, Because that's how you perceive me to be. So I shot that down. There was no way for me to win in the 'argument' because either I prove you right and double down and say, Yes I'm supportive of all women, period, thus confirming to you I'm some horrible white knight. Anything short of doubling down means you can escape with your backpedaling comment. or I go, no your wrong, that's not what I said, and you say that I'm two-faced.
When the reality of the situation is, your just looking for a way to prove your right about me instead of realizing your kind of acting like a tool. Seriously man, It's funny when you make people like BB look good, at least crazy is hard to deal and respond to.
IF you want to have an argument about why Anime has weird sexist undertones, I'll have that argument with you. Sadly, this is not that argument. You want to make it that argument, but its not.
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Kireek:
Before I even saw HR's response, my first thought on reading your initial post was: "Fuck that guy trying to tell me what I should or should not like." HR's rambled at me about the Fate animes before, I've seen an episode or two and it didn't do enough for me to keep watching. so it's not like I'm a die-hard fan of the show.
Try presenting your facts (whether they're actually facts or not is not the point of this comment) without inserting mansplaining instructions about what I as a self-respecting woman should do. Maybe then you won't prompt an immediate "Fuck you" response.
Just in case it's not clear: it's entirely possible to be a self-respecting woman and still like all sorts of stupid shit. The two are not related. Yes, in your own words, very poor word choice.
ES
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I'm with ES on this one. There are a TON of anime out there with a strong female protagonist who rails against the macho White Knight insistent on protecting her. Not just anime either. Shows, games, movies... happens ALL THE TIME. That doesn't make any of them less enjoyable to watch and/or play. Self-respect has nothing to do with whether I like a particular anime.
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Sometimes it's okay for a woman to need protecting in an anime, as well. That doesn't make her a weak character.
Take Irisviel in Fate/Zero.
Sometimes it's okay for a man to need protecting in an anime, as well. That doesn't make him a weak character.
Take Waver Velvet in Fate/Zero.
I really don't see how the 'combat ability' of a man or a woman determines their worth as a character.
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A lot of the time it's the confusion wherein people think that "strong female character" means "badass woman that kicks ass all the time". This is a fallacy. Not all strong female characters kick ass all over the place. A lot of them don't. A lot of them are just women that are portrayed realistically, with their characterizations based on who they are, not what their gender is.
No one is ever going to expect Felicity from "Arrow" to put on some tights and start kicking ass all over the place, and if she did, it would ring hollow; it wouldn't make her stronger as a character or a woman, in my opinion. This does not mean she is not a strong female character.
Also, fuck, @Kireek, don't tell women what they should and shouldn't like. Seriously, this is Being Decent 101.
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Agreed! Part of the reason I like Ouran so much is that the main female protagonist is not a 'big badass'. She's a girl with a lot of smarts, a lot of conviction, but she's still 'human' enough to make mistakes because she's also somewhat socially awkward.
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@EmmahSue said:
Just in case it's not clear: it's entirely possible to be a self-respecting woman and still like all sorts of stupid shit. The two are not related. Yes, in your own words, very poor word choice.
God, please don't tell me you like that Kardashian show. You may consider yourself a self-respecting whatever, but I will seriously deliver a gonad-kick if you do.
