The Apology Thread

[Ghost]

Perhaps I had a moment of Zen tonight, but I realized that the end of my MU hobby is drawing to a close. Looking back, I realized that there were points of drama or issues that came and went, or were left unresolved, and I never felt truly right about how they were resolved...if they were resolved at all. I have a gut feeling that I'm not alone in this, and that there are good people out there who lost their way, shit went sideways, and in looking back there were moments where communication broke down or friendships got blurry. The end result was something happened...and it sucked. It sucked and you might remember it in the corner of your brain in one of those 'if I could go back I would have done things differently' ways.

So I thought a thread where, should someone want to reach out and make amends or tell stories about how they wish things had gone differently, you never know who it might mean something to.

Better world means being better than you were ten seconds ago and coming to terms with it, right?

I'll go first:

@Seraphim73 and @GirlCalledBlu . I was too harsh and I was rude. I apologize for being a troll and the venom I threw your way was unnecessary. At the end of the day, some shit truly doesn't matter, and I apologize if I made it harder to find something that made you feel happy, entertained, and creative in a world that already makes it hard enough to feel free.

To the people who may have felt put out by my decision to leave the hobby (up to and including this time, which I think is my 5th and last): I apologize if my decision to walk away left you hanging, or storylines unfinished. I wanted to make a clean cut rather than disappear and leave you wondering where I went to. All too often people disappear because explaining why you're leaving can be awkward, and I wanted to make sure that I didn't do that to you. I felt it was better to announce my leaving than leave you hanging and not knowing where you stood.

Cheers. I didn't want to walk away without making a few things right. People deserve closure and to know they're not the assholes we made them out to be when we were heated.

[tek]

I want to apologize to some of the folks from No Return. My anxiety and depression were out of control when I played there and I was super super new to MUing at the time and I made my issues other people's problems more often than was healthy or appropriate.

[tangent]

I'm sorry for that one time on Cybersphere where a kid took a bunch of effort into a plot, like months and what not, and I just walked in the room and put a bullet in his head.

And I'm also sorry for that time right after, that I set my tagline to NCSP: We're sorry about your plot.

[Gilette]

I'm sorry to the good people I left behind, along with the plots and planned developments, because the whispers of petty, childish players got too loud to ignore. I'm also sorry to the players whom I didn't believe when those things were brought to my attention. I gave those malignant players the benefit of the doubt, like I did Elsa, when I shouldn't have.

[Ghost]

I apologize to a few players back in the day, whom I won't name specifically for their anonymity. I believed it's just a game and what is IC stays IC, so I muscled through a few things, putting IC first. After all was said and done, I realize due to OOC issues, angry pages, etc, that it wasn't JUST a game for you. Regardless of my feelings that IC should always stay IC, looking back, I can't help but feel like you were another soul on the other end of the keyboard, going through whatever kinds of shit that led you to get triggered.

I was playing a game and doubled down on what I thought was proper for the game and for my character, and I can't help but wonder sometimes just how real the hurt was on your side. For whatever reason the hurt existed, or why, I hope things are going better on your end, wherever you are.

In the end for me, it was just a game, but it doesn't matter how justified the hurt on your end was. I know better now than I did years ago how personally invested some people get, and I regret that my character choosing X or Y set another living human being into that kind of headspace.

I know at least four or five times, I went "fuck their moody shit" and turned off the empathy because I wasn't willing to dig through OOC weeds with strangers.

Earlier this year, I reunited and made amends with someone I hurt from 5W, and in retiring from the hobby, it might be one of the most soul-rewarding experiences I'm taking away from it.

[Miss Demeanor]

@Ghost said in The Apology Thread:

I apologize to a few players back in the day, whom I won't name specifically for their anonymity. I believed it's just a game and what is IC stays IC, so I muscled through a few things, putting IC first. After all was said and done, I realize due to OOC issues, angry pages, etc, that it wasn't JUST a game for you. Regardless of my feelings that IC should always stay IC, looking back, I can't help but feel like you were another soul on the other end of the keyboard, going through whatever kinds of shit that led you to get triggered.

I was playing a game and doubled down on what I thought was proper for the game and for my character, and I can't help but wonder sometimes just how real the hurt was on your side. For whatever reason the hurt existed, or why, I hope things are going better on your end, wherever you are.

In the end for me, it was just a game, but it doesn't matter how justified the hurt on your end was. I know better now than I did years ago how personally invested some people get, and I regret that my character choosing X or Y set another living human being into that kind of headspace.

I know at least four or five times, I went "fuck their moody shit" and turned off the empathy because I wasn't willing to dig through OOC weeds with strangers.

Earlier this year, I reunited and made amends with someone I hurt from 5W, and in retiring from the hobby, it might be one of the most soul-rewarding experiences I'm taking away from it.

I'm sorry, but this one feels a bit disingenuous to me. You're not apologizing for your actions, you're apologizing for their reactions. I've gotten kinda good at spotting this. Years of exposure to Spider tends to make one very good at spotting the 'I'm sorry you took this the wrong way' type of non-apology.

[Auspice]

@Miss-Demeanor

I read it more as a 'I didn't see these reactions for what they really were and I'm sorry for that.'

I had that recently IRL. Sadly, there's too big a rift for me to comfortably reach out to the person, but I went through something that made me realize 'Oh. This was a much bigger deal for them than I ever truly realized and I downplayed their emotions / reactions because of that.'

So I think in this case: the other person reacted a certain way and Ghost didn't give it the respect/acknowledgement it deserved, so he's apologizing for that. It's not 'I'm sorry you took this that way,' it's 'You took this that way and I didn't realize just how big a deal it was to you.'

[Roz]

@Miss-Demeanor said in The Apology Thread:

@Ghost said in The Apology Thread:

I apologize to a few players back in the day, whom I won't name specifically for their anonymity. I believed it's just a game and what is IC stays IC, so I muscled through a few things, putting IC first. After all was said and done, I realize due to OOC issues, angry pages, etc, that it wasn't JUST a game for you. Regardless of my feelings that IC should always stay IC, looking back, I can't help but feel like you were another soul on the other end of the keyboard, going through whatever kinds of shit that led you to get triggered.

I was playing a game and doubled down on what I thought was proper for the game and for my character, and I can't help but wonder sometimes just how real the hurt was on your side. For whatever reason the hurt existed, or why, I hope things are going better on your end, wherever you are.

In the end for me, it was just a game, but it doesn't matter how justified the hurt on your end was. I know better now than I did years ago how personally invested some people get, and I regret that my character choosing X or Y set another living human being into that kind of headspace.

I know at least four or five times, I went "fuck their moody shit" and turned off the empathy because I wasn't willing to dig through OOC weeds with strangers.

Earlier this year, I reunited and made amends with someone I hurt from 5W, and in retiring from the hobby, it might be one of the most soul-rewarding experiences I'm taking away from it.

I'm sorry, but this one feels a bit disingenuous to me. You're not apologizing for your actions, you're apologizing for their reactions. I've gotten kinda good at spotting this. Years of exposure to Spider tends to make one very good at spotting the 'I'm sorry you took this the wrong way' type of non-apology.

Yeah, pretty much this. A real apology in this situation -- what little has been expressed about it -- might be something along the lines of "I'm sorry for not allowing any consideration at all of OOC reality to get in the way of my IC purity." Maybe these are people who should have taken a step back if they were getting angry and upset at you OOCly, I don't know. But this wasn't a real apology.

[Arkandel]

@Miss-Demeanor Half this thread so far reads like a sorry-not-sorry to me.

[skew]

Public apologies should go something like "I'm sorry I was wrong, and I want everyone on this forum to know I was wrong." It shouldn't include justification, excuses, additions. If you want to explain something to someone, send it directly to them.

This thread is just hog bait.

[Misadventure]

Seemed like a real apology to me.

It's as if different people take things differently without any of them being undisputedly right or wrong.

[Miss Demeanor]

@Auspice What you're suggesting still isn't an apology, just an admittance of having shrugged off another person. When you apologize to someone, it doesn't take three paragraphs of rambling diatribe that never once says 'I'm sorry I did this'. He starts it off by saying 'I apologize to some people'... and then goes on to talk about how its really just about how he didn't realize that other people were taking it badly, while also stating that he recognized it was happening and consciously turned off his empathy towards them. There's no apology there.

@Arkandel I'm mostly interested in the guy proclaiming his retirement from MU*ing (again), starting a thread about apologizing to people... then failing to actually apologize to anyone. This is the most Spidery thing I've seen happen since she huffed off from TR.

[Misadventure]

@Miss-Demeanor How would you apologize for doing what you think is the right thing (up to a point), and not recognizing when the impact on other parties was more than the value of what you think is right (up to a point)?

Seriously, I'm asking.

[Miss Demeanor]

@Misadventure How about... 'I'm sorry that I did something that hurt you. I may not have intended to hurt you, but I did and that is my fault.' Pretty simple, sweet, and to the point.

[Misadventure]

I see no difference.

He acknowledged the choice he made was going to be distressing, and he was aware of that. Your phrasing says he did not intend it, yet he did. Just not to the degree of distress he became aware of later. Nor was there a statement of not doing so again.

I agree with you that there can be fake apologies, or apologies that fully blame the aggrieved party. I'm just less certain about it. If I encountered someone stating my intent for me based on how they would do things, I would just say fuck it and walk away. However, my goal is assessing whether it will happen again, as I do not forgive. So perhaps my goals are different.

[Miss Demeanor]

And yet, he never actually apologizes to anyone for those actions.

[surreality]

I'm not going to weigh in on what brought it up, but I will say: I do think @Misadventure asks a fair question.

Plenty of people think I'm a horrible evil bitch, for instance, when I genuinely think I'm doing the right thing. Sometimes, they're the kind of people who just don't like being called out on shady bullshit or just don't like being told 'no', but other times, I am absolutely wrong, and am just bull-headed.

Happened with a friend the other day, in fact. An issue arose, and while I recognized it and took it seriously? I immediately dove into Optimist Problem Solver Girl mode to try to make it right, because I did feel bad about what happened, and wanted to see what I could do that could help make ammends.

This is not any sort of bad intention, but it kinda actually skips the I'm really sorry, though I didn't know that would upset you, I did upset you, that is not cool for me to do; thank you for being honest with me and letting me know so I can do my best to ensure I don't do something like that again part, which is pretty fucking important.

[Misadventure]

@Miss-Demeanor I think he apologizes for his decisions.

I do not know any details, but it sounds like he said "It's IC for my character to do X." Someone said "X really bothers me on an OOC level I can't deal with your character/you the player, if X is the decision you make IC ."

Maybe it's rape trauma. Maybe it's polyamory vs monogamy, maybe it's "my character thinks of a life of magical soul distorting slavery is worse than death".

To me, here, actions which are "good", the lesser good, yet still good, were placed up against what has now become the greater good, being kind about someones issues.

So no, the action of "keep it IC" stays a lesser good idea. The context shifted, where there was a greater good to be done, and he didn't recognize it. And now he does.

I really don't know, but I wouldn't want to assume and shut down people trying to apologize because they didn't phrase it to not just their targeted subject, but to me, and anyone else.

I'm certainly not going to apologize to anyone publicly on this board now.

[Miss Demeanor]

@Misadventure Actually, what he would do is simply refuse to OOCly discuss anything ICly, including the path of IC relationships with other people. And then turn around and do things ICly that he knew would be hurtful and harmful to others, effectively blindsiding not just characters, but players. If you've ever played out an IC relationship, you should know that OOC communication is KEY. Yet he would patently refuse to communicate OOCly, then would 'shut down empathy' for them when they expressed hurt or anger towards the decisions that he made for his character. He was steering his character, there wasn't some mystical force driving his character to do things that he had at least an inkling would hurt someone's feelings OOC. And rather than sit down and say something OOC about the direction he wanted to take his character, he would hide behind 'IC is IC'.

So... yeah, maybe he should... I dunno, actually apologize for blatantly treating the people behind the characters as shittily as his character treated theirs.

[Misadventure]

Needs more details.

No one mentions any mystical force.

You don't get to claim intimate knowledge of what anyone "knew" without more details. If I have this right, he "knew" that people didn't like his IC choices, and they "knew" he didn't want to discuss the RP OOCly, and he "knew" this upset them and now he "knows" that the degree of upset was more important than his own, morally neutral or even good, goal, and he thought he should say so.

Yes, I've played through relationships in games including several that ended the RP partnership, and OOC friendships. The OOC talk is exactly what ended the conversation.

I'm also with you on the dangers of the false apology. Everyone should be aware, shouldn't accept fake apologies, the "why do you make me hit you" etc offered by abusers. I just think people should be open to a second opinion. I re-read the two posts with your point in mind, and I can see it. I also re-read for mine, and went through the same "use a comma, please" and found my interpretation again.

I'm saying measure twice, cut once. Or not at all maybe.