The Apology Thread
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@Warma-Sheen said in The Apology Thread:
So mine was an regret-expressed non-apology.
Which is something I fully support. I think there is a lot more to be gain from honest communication even when the parties do not agree and will not come to an agreement then there is from performing a social dance one does not mean.
I think that is one of the reasons people tend to look over apologies so closely is that through both fiction and modern media we see far to many non-pologies. -
Apologizing is for the apologizer. Asking forgiveness is for the recipient. At least, that's how Yom Kippur was always explained to me and why we ask forgiveness instead of apologizing.
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So, let's follow this train for a bit. If people are only shown these non-pologies, why do we criticise people who are making an honest attempt at an apology, even if it is flawed? Making a good honest apology is practically a skill in and of itself and, a lot of time, it is much more about the spirit of the thing than it is going over it like a lawyer in court.
I mean, particularly given that a lot of people in this hobby probably aren't the most skilled at social niceties.
But, like @tek says, just because someone apologises doesn't mean I have to forgive them. It's not a cure-all. An apology is just a good start and means nothing if change or improvement doesn't come in its wake.
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I don't know that people are criticizing people that they feel are making honest apologies. I think the whole point of it is that the apologies being discussed in context are the not-honest ones, which is kind of the whole point of the side conversation.
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According to some.
I have a waggish sense of humor.
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Because there are people who get off on tearing apart others. 'This didn't sound heartfelt to me' somehow becomes 'I must pull apart this sham and expose it for others who don't see The Truth the way I do'.
Because the hobby is full of major malfunctions and some people lose their shit when someone who did them wrong dares to try to make right in a direction other than theirs, or brings an apology bouquet with petunias, and oh my god, Frank, I told you once in passing that I hated petunias, you're a waste of a human being.
To take the other side, most of us have had someone be breathtakingly horrible to us in this hobby. Sometimes, an apology unearths this, combines with seventeen random factors in your day, and you go off on someone because it feels good and/or feels like getting some of your own back.
If we were all perfect at making it clear when we meant 'in my opinion this is wrong' versus 'unarguably wrong', this forum would have nothing to talk about.
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@gasket said in The Apology Thread:
To take the other side, most of us have had someone be breathtakingly horrible to us in this hobby.
I can honestly say that no one has treated me this poorly before.
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@Gilette
For me personally I criticize form because it is the only clue I have as to what the intent actually is.
A better clue is behavior after apology but that usually requires opening yourself but to the possibility of being burned by that person again, so before even taking that step I look to form. It is not going to be 100 percent accurate but nothing is but I feel it is far better then just blindly accepting someone is contrite. -
@ThatGuyThere The allegory of the prisoners in the cave, friend.
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@Ganymede said in The Apology Thread:
I can honestly say that no one has treated me this poorly before.
I'm not at all surprised. You've always struck me as being willing to speak up and/or get the hell out of dodge before things go really sideways. (I can't speak for anyone else, but I know failing to do those always factors into my own misfortunes.)
Something something communication something. It's always seemed to me that you do better at that than most.
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@gasket said in The Apology Thread:
Something something communication something. It's always seemed to me that you do better at that than most.
Thank you, but I never thought there was a trick about it.
When I was younger, I was creeped on. But I gravitated towards people more mature than I. (Sunny, for instance.) I try not to get roped into stupid shit, and I don't think I ever entertained gossip much. There are a handful of gamers I listen to closely, who have never steered me wrong. (Sunny, for instance.)
I'm not a saint; I'm not perfect; I've made mistakes; I've deserted people. But at the end of the day, I think the only reason I've escaped being shit on is because I've never tried to form a relationship with others. Those that have developed occurred organically, without a concerted effort.
That said, the shittiest I've been treated was probably at the hand of VASpider and Shaft, who had Nokomis remove me from Denver by Night's staff because I was deliberately barring them and Seiche from taking control of a sphere. What they might not have appreciated was that I wasn't trying to keep them from anything; everyone else was.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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You intimidate the drama away with all your lawbot speak. But more seriously, yes. I think that much of the reason you see far less of the garbage that I do is that you don't wade out into the bullshit -- and more importantly, you keep a healthy distance from people as your general rule. I get emotionally invested in people pretty easily, and some of my buttons are easily pushed. I'm not QUITE as easy to troll as I used to be, but it's definitely still a thing. ^^
Also, thank you for the compliment. It means a great deal to me coming from you. I've an enormous amount of respect for you in addition to adoring you to pieces, so. Yeah. Thanks.
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That's similar to a lot of my experiences. When I see people on MU*s just throwing their Steam profile, real email, and all that stuff up onto what is, essentially, a public forum, I always wonder about what they expect. As every asshole reality TV contestant has said: I'm not on the game to make friends. But sometimes it seems like so many people are there for friends first, game second, even when they know nothing about the other players there.
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Gaming is a social activity to me. The whole point of this for me is enjoying it with other people. Otherwise I'd be off writing a novel. I spend a hell of a lot of time with some of these folks, it seems strange to me that we wouldn't be friends. I recognize that other people have different approaches (see: Gany and I having VERY different views on this) though, and thus I don't try to force it on anyone. But 'friends first, game second' on a person to person level? That doesn't seem strange to me. I approach tabletop that way, and my guild on WoW, and every other gaming-related thing I do that's not playing a single player game. But seriously, while I recognize that others have different approaches, I can't quite wrap my brain around it all the same. Why would anyone spend so much time with people that they aren't friends with? It's a foreign mindset to me.
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I'm kinda in the middle on this one.
I am crazy private in that I don't post things publicly as much as I can avoid it; I am even super paranoid about sharing alts/etc.
People I get along with over time, I will share what information I feel comfortable sharing, privately.
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Tabletop is different. Even MMO guild stuff is different. In the first, you know those people and probably have known them before sitting down to play a game. With a MMO guild, it's smaller, more intimate, and you inevitably end up just being more social with those people, probably because a lot of MMO gameplay requires coordinating a bunch of people and trusting each role to know what they're doing. I don't think either maps completely to a MU* environment.
It's not too difficult a mindset. I mean it in the best possible sense when I say that I literally do not care about the player behind the monitor, nor their history anywhere else. Can you RP well, are you fluent in English, are you able to create interesting storylines, and not derail scenes to complain about whatever IRL bugbear has your attention of late? It's all I look for. It's no different to any other sort of hobby activity (hiking, bird watching, martial arts, whatever) where, sure, you'll get along with the people there, but you're there for another reason and, ultimately, you could replace any of those people with anyone else.
Of course, if those activity partners are people you get along with, then they'll become friends.
Hell, if MU*ers were replaced a fancy algorithm that could create poses I find suitable, that'd be enough for me. But that'd require some incredibly advanced tech.
This may be colored by the fact that my evenings, when I'm most likely to be sit down and devote time to a MU, the places are most likely to be virtually dead. If I needed to make social connections as part of my game plan, I'd simply be unable to.
@surreality basically sums up my thoughts, too. I have people on my Steam that I've met through MU*s but that's literally three people over a long, long time.
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I'm not private - I am guarded. And it used to be I didn't vent as I've learned to do now, letting some steam out when I need it, but kept it in; it means on one hand I was more private than now but also that was more prone to burning out than I am these days.
You won't find me easy to upset. I can be irritated but I'm more patient with it; and I use (some of you) as moral compasses often to be better able to tell when my actions are guided by frustration more than situations warrant.
But, above all else, my tolerance for drama is very near zero. If it gets to it I will communicate my grievance in no uncertain terms then one of two things will always happen very swiftly; either the problem will go away or I will.
There is no excuse for being unhappy while playing a game.
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@Sunny said in The Apology Thread:
Why would anyone spend so much time with people that they aren't friends with?
When we RP together, you're RPing with Ganymede. Ganymede is a sexually-ambiguous lawyerbot that alleges it was created and developed in Canada before being exported to Ohio for being an intolerable fuck-wit. I, the player, am more than slightly different.
When I go out to local haunts to chill, sing karaoke, or mix and mingle, I do so as myself, the person -- the non-lawyerbot. I give people my name, talk about what I do, discuss sports and other hobbies, and laugh at others' expense.
I see these as two activities. So, when I'm online, I generally don't talk about personal things: my name; my hobbies; my pets (children); my work. (At least, I don't do so often.) It's not important to my persona on the game as a player: there, what is relevant is that I'm patient, polite, encouraging, and genial until you push lawyerbot buttons and turn me into a savage.
I've been at this over 20 years, and I'm pretty sure that no one really knows who I am.
And it doesn't matter, does it?
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@Sunny said in The Apology Thread:
But seriously, while I recognize that others have different approaches, I can't quite wrap my brain around it all the same. Why would anyone spend so much time with people that they aren't friends with? It's a foreign mindset to me.
A friend is someone I can rely on. By definition I can't - won't - rely on you guys even for things that are game-related let alone more serious stuff. I don't see that as diminishing the role as to differentiate it, to set boundaries for both your protection and my own.
There are folks online I confide in which is important to me. But I know, and I hope it's known as well, that things happen and they're completely forgivable in ways I wouldn't have forgiven in real life. For example solidarity and accountability matters to me a great deal in real life but far less so online; I've had people I really like flake out on me on characters we were playing together and I didn't hold it against them. In contrast to that I've had a childhood friend I had stood by when his life wasn't going so great who ghosted me completely when my own took a health-related downward turn, and I'll never look at him the same way again. An unreliable friend is not really one but online I consider everyone to be unreliable, if that makes sense.
Basically it's my expectations which are different because what unites and brings us together is a mutual sense of having fun, not a mutual showing of support. I really don't expect that much from y'all; don't be crazy, show up once in a while while I'm around and as long as we're having fun then it'll all work out splendidly. If you disappear on me it's not a big deal - our paths might cross again, it's a small world, and it's not like if we really miss playing together we don't have MSB to track each other down and go 'hey, wanna do something? where are you playing these days?'.
But although that kind of friendship is important I will return what I'm given, too. If I suggest playing together a few times and you decline but don't reciprocate later on I'll take the hint and not ask again. No harm done or insult taken but I'll share my time online with people who like spending theirs hanging out with me. I think that's fair.
