CofD and Professional Training

Arkandel

@Ghost said in CofD and Professional Training:

Social combat is important because nearly every player is interested in their social game succeeding, but very few players are willing to organically choose to lose in social situations.

Maybe I've been lucky but I've been around plenty of people who chose to 'lose' socially in scenes without any dice being involved.

Then again none of those involved ruining someone's character as a result. But if that's the desired outcome then that's also the problem there, not the system used to determine the result.

Ganymede

@Lithium said in CofD and Professional Training:

Admittedly I've not played on every WoD game there was, but if you know of a game where social rules were actually enforced, I'd like to hear why that didn't work. If it was a problem with people not liking the rules, or /other/ problems that usually end up with a mu* dying, like bad staff etc.

In those old days, it was very tiresome to have to be called in, as staff, to watch rolls for something as simple as getting information. Tedious, even. But that's what's required if the rules are enforced as they should because, as you've pointed out, these games were made with the idea of an Omnipotent Overseer ensuring the system works.

I'm on your side, mostly. The rules have to be enforced, or else the stats are pointless. But, as I've pointed out, you can still put an "escape" in there that will allow a player to leave a situation if they are genuinely uncomfortable with what another player wants to put them through. That's what I've elected to do for my own system.

Improv has rules, and the cardinal one is making sure everyone's comfortable. If someone is making others uncomfortable, taking that someone out of play if a necessary step even if he or she is not breaking any rules. I'd love it if people worked things out -- I generally do this -- but it's even better when everyone agrees to play by the rules.

ThatGuyThere

@Lithium said in CofD and Professional Training:

That's how I feel about it anyways, we have st's to judge combat scenes, why not st's judging social combat? It costs the same XP, it should be just as useful in situations where it applies.

the big reason comes down to time. Yes i am sure if I am on a game and get into a combat or a social combat I can request staff arbitration. For either one it is not likely to happen right away so the scene would most likely get paused and go to jobs. While I would be fine with that if a conflict cannot be resolved between the players but past experience has shown me that if the scene has to be paused most of the time (2/3 roughly) the whole scene will get retconned rather than brought to resolution.

Lithium

@ThatGuyThere This is just another reason why I have long felt that TT systems simply do not work for MU. It's an entirely different medium. Sure we've hamfisted a few systems and made rules adjustments but in my experience everything that has the same cost, needs to have comparable value.

In this case there is no difference in costs between social skills and combat skills, so those social skills need to be just as important and the rules need to be just as followed as with combat skills.

Is it perfect? Of course not, but to do otherwise is quite simply saying: Social characters are pointless to even do.

That's not something I accept.

@Ganymede I agree with what you're saying, and this is one of the reasons I /like/ Fate so much in a MU setting. Social combat? Almost identical to real combat. Losing can actually be beneficial. I watched a Warder lose social combat about a possible Warlock and so they retreated. Sure they could have turned it combatty, and being a warden maybe could have forced the issue but they didn't.

So in the end it comes down to what was said before: The problem comes down to /players/ who abuse/break the rules, and the staff has to be willing to show those types to the door. At least in my opinion, because a problem player or three can chase people away from a game just as easily as bad staffers can.

That said: I don't mind the idea of Social not even being statted beyond a few key things, but otherwise being RP based. My first real MUSH used Amber Diceless and I had a /ton/ of fun there, socially and combatty. Not pure consent, but pretty close all things considered.

Ghost

To curl back into Professional Training:

You have the spirit of the rules and the letter of the rules, right?

I'm gonna venture out to say that a lot of the time the draw for professional training, from the player perspective, is to get that 9/again or the other perks that come with it. They usually want those perks to be used for augmentation of other rolls. A 9/again for social rolls means shit on a game where social combat doesnt take place, but comes in very handy in say, Changeling Contract rolls that use said social stats.

Its kind of like how you could add fighting style fencing to all kinds of shit and come out of chargen doing 5-6 automatic damage on a fencing roll, yet people wanted to apply fencing to broadswords.

WoD was designed to make the dots fit the character, not the dots fit the player's dice pool. If a character has a certain build, they should be expected to have a background, playstyle, and personality to match.

So in this, a massive social monkey character who didn't spend points in socialize shouldn't be very good at socializing, dice rolls or no. The stat isn't there. But in many cases what I see are highly sociable characters with no dots in skills they RP their chars appear to be very good at, but disnt take the skill because they needed the dice for other rolls that they would need more frequently...like claymore fencing for auto damage.

Spirit vs letter.

Professional training is used to abuse this concept, IMO

Ganymede

@Lithium said in CofD and Professional Training:

The problem comes down to /players/ who abuse/break the rules, and the staff has to be willing to show those types to the door. At least in my opinion, because a problem player or three can chase people away from a game just as easily as bad staffers can.

And this, we definitely agree on.

@Ghost said in CofD and Professional Training:

So in this, a massive social monkey character who didn't spend points in socialize shouldn't be very good at socializing, dice rolls or no. The stat isn't there. But in many cases what I see are highly sociable characters with no dots in skills they RP their chars appear to be very good at, but disnt take the skill because they needed the dice for other rolls that they would need more frequently...like claymore fencing for auto damage.

What I got from your post -- this especially -- is that Professional Training should be taken out because incompetent players will abuse it. This seems reasonable, but it defies the maxim of not setting policy to cater to the lowest common denominator.

That said, I still think it ought to be limited to a mortals-only game.

ThatGuyThere

@Ghost said in CofD and Professional Training:

I'm gonna venture out to say that a lot of the time the draw for professional training, from the player perspective, is to get that 9/again or the other perks that come with it. They usually want those perks to be used for augmentation of other rolls. A 9/again for social rolls means shit on a game where social combat doesnt take place, but comes in very handy in say, Changeling Contract rolls that use said social stats.

Regardless of the rest of the issue if Professional Training were allowed on a game I would definitely restrict the benefits to mundane uses of the skill, not power activations since while those often roll skills they rarely entail the actual IC use of skills in a manner in which Professional training would be applicable.

Edit to add: I somewhat agree with Gany while i might allow it in a multi-sphere game I would limit it to a mortal only merit.

Ghost

@Ganymede @ThatGuyThere But even with it being restricted to mortals and if staff monitors to ensure that backgrounds and character types match the PT they've chosen:

(i.e. "My character's a prostitute (empathy and subterfuge), but since those asset skills are useless in day to day rp I'm going to put in her background that she used to be a professional target shooter (crafts and firearms), but have no intention of continuing her lifestyle as a pro shooter past cgen, this is all just background stuff, but I want her to be able to make stuff and shoot guns despite 85% of her time she's blowing dudes.")

Even then, merits are less expensive than skills. So PT is a great way to spend 2xRating XP to make it possible to buy skills at 2xRating instead of 3xRating, then end up with a 'rote' action on a firearms roll?

Still, IMO, cheeseball and OP

Let's take it a step further, too?

A lot of the WoD games in the MuSphere have some fairly ancient characters with a boatload of XP, and the ones that allow PT (such as Fallcoast) honor the xp benefits and free specialties during chargen. So, in theory, you're foolish for not taking PT and sinking a max of 30 xp for the following benefits:

30 xp (PT level 5) gets you:
(note that only 1 dot in the asset skill is required in the PT coming out of chargen, even if you have PT5)

One free skill specialty 3xp value
Another free skill specialty at PT2 3xp value
Specialties cost 2xp instead of 3 at PT3 1xp per specialty saved
Asset skills cost 2x rating instead of 3x rating
Asset skill#1 purchase 1-5 30xp (instead of 45)
Asset skill#2 purchase 1-5 30xp (instead of 45)
Five Dots in Contracts value: 10-30xp value

Final tally:
During chargen, for the expenditure of 30xp (which the savings alone comes from the 15xp per asset skill discount), you get the following:

Cost with PT:

2 skills at rank 5, one of which can be used as a 'rote' action (will cost you an additional 30xp per skill, but at reduced cost)
2 free specialties
Five dots in contracts
Total: 90xp

Cost without PT:

6xp for the specialties
90xp for two skills at rank 5
10-30xp for the Contacts merits (depending on whether or not they are 5 contacts in 5 different fields, or taken as 5 points in contacts in ONE field)
Total: 106-136xp

I'm pretty sure my math is accurate on this, I'm sure someone will tell me if it's wrong, but my point is this: PT is cutting corners to maximize dice output and reduce cost in skills, whereas any given character who doesn't take PT has to pay the costs outright, DESPITE ROLEPLAYING AS A MEMBER OF THIS PROFESSION.

From a roleplaying perspective, there shouldn't be a single trained bartender in existence without the PT(Bartender) merit, since they've trained as a bartender! Then, technically, when spending time working as a bartender, shouldn't they be forced to spend XP to explain the skills they've gained as a bartender? After all, how could they properly RP a bartender with no dots or training in the profession? If they're spending XP on firearms, but have no PT or points in the asset skills of a bartender, then they'd be a shit bartender, right?

Eh. Altogether PT reads to me as a clever way to skirt around xp costs to maximize character dice output, but not from a game/in character perspective, but from the perspective of a player who realizes that buying shit at 2xRating or 3xRating eats up XP fast, and they want the biggest bang for their buck coming out of Cgen.

End soapbox? TL;DR?
Cheeseball, corner-cutting garbage, PT is. IMO

Killer Klown

Honestly, I never saw a point in restricting the merit; for supernaturals, there are some professions that just don't work; but there are others where they should be better than the average human simply because of what they are (I have yet to hear a justificaiton as to why a Werewolf would not be a better, say, hunter or survivalist than a human would in terms of skills).
That said, though, I think CoD did it the absolutely right way in that they didn't restrict it - but they made it less attractive for supernaturals to have.
For my money, I was never really interested in the Rote action bit; it requires a WP Spend flat out, and is difficult to use in combat <I agree with preventing it's use in that case - combat is far too chaotic a scenario to rely on 'rote' ability by skill alone. Supernatural influence, sure; but not through training> The contacts were throwaway, the skill/spec bonuses were nice but nothing over the top - and less so in COD where they are only 1 or 2 xp points each regardless of what level they actually boost the stat to. Given you're paying a point for that dot of merit anyway, the gain is minimal.
Also, Supers tend to have ways to get the 8 or 9 again on their own. Any starting Rahu has the ability to get 8-again on their brawl or weaponry rolls, werewolves have a merit that will give them 9-again on one of their Auspice favored skills, etc. I don't know Vampire as well, but I'm sure they have similiar things. I know Mage still has Fate - which means they have all sorts of dice hacking abilities.

All told, PT in CofD isn't necessarily restricted from Supernaturals to take -there's simply far less reason for them to take it if they're just trying to buff dice.

Edit: Just in case people weren't aware, CofD changed a few things about PT - in addition to things being a flat cost by level. Most importantly, where it does reduce cost, it's significantly less of a reduction than the original.

• Networking Contacts •• relating to profession.
•• Continuing Education Choose two Asset Skills relating to profession. Take 9-Again to roll Asset Skills.
••• Breadth of Knowledge Choose a third Asset Skill. Distribute two new Specialties among your Asset Skills.
•••• On the Job Training Raise one Asset Skill by one dot. Take a beat when you buy dots in Asset Skills.
••••• The Routine Spend one Willpower to apply the rote quality to an Asset Skill roll.

surreality

@Ghost said in CofD and Professional Training:
You aren't looking at CoD PT, you're looking at nWoD PT, and moreover, you seem to be looking at some of the old HR variants of PT from what I can tell.

nWoD is the one with the discounts. CoD doesn't have that. You get a free skill dot at a certain level, and you get some specs. You do not get a purchase discount and all skill dots are 2xp flat cost without xRating coming into any of it at all.

You also can't buy 5 dots of one type of contact; this is the reason most games make Contacts a 1 dot merit only and allow people to buy multiple instances of it for different types of contacts. It is not like Allies, Status, etc. that allows multiple levels to be purchased in one type of <thing>.

You are railing against something that doesn't exist in the way you describe in CoD at all.

In CoD, you get what @Killer-Klown describes.

ThatGuyThere

@surreality said in CofD and Professional Training:

nWoD is the one with the discounts. CoD doesn't have that. You get a free skill dot at a certain level, and you get some specs. You do not get a purchase discount and all skill dots are 2xp flat cost without xRating coming into any of it at all.

Slight correction at level four you do get a discount just in a round about manner. You get a beat for buying a skill dot and since beats become xp you end up with a rebate of xp. Still a discount even if you pay full price initially because you get a cut back.

surreality

@ThatGuyThere You'd get, at most... 2.8xp? Which is only if you started with all your asset skills at 0 and then bought them up from there -- which is completely counterintuitive to the idea behind PT. TR (and I think FC) using the nWoD PT discounts allowed those discounts to apply in CG; I haven't seen the beat gain thing do the same on any CoD game (and don't think it should).

If there is a HR required here in some fashion, I would suggest it be something like 'must begin with at least a 2-3 in your two initial asset skills' to indicate that you are, actually, a professional in those areas on approval. Otherwise, it makes no sense to call yourself a professional in those skills in the first place, because you're not.

ThatGuyThere

Yeah it is not a huge discount but it is still a 10 % discount if you go with the normal 5 beats equaling and Experience so while it is not as large as the one in pre-GMC NWoD it still is there, lets say you start the game with each asset skill at 3, which seem fair for a professional, if you later add raise those to 5 you would end up with 4 beats which granted is not a huge amount but it is almost enough to buy a merit dot. If you started with a 3 and a 2 in those skills which would likely pass approval on just about any game than Pofessional training would net you a full xp which is a free merit dot.

ThatOneDude

To be clear, we're all talking CofD PT right? 5 xp for 5 dots?

surreality

@ThatGuyThere Yeah. It's also easy enough to resolve by dropping the beat, but there are enough other, lesser things that grant beats per the system as it is that no one seems to have any issue with.

As it stands, other than equipment bonus stuff, it's the only real way for a lot of skills to have 9/again-rote access. Most of the equipment things are, naturally, weapons, which limits the applicable skills, and as a result, further corrals concepts into the combat build arena.

Ghost

CofD PT is way less overpowered than NWoD, at least in terms of XP usage, but CofD has a lot of good tie-ins for receiving XP for your role play choices, which seems to be like a direct reaponse to the cheeseball minmaxing antics that were rampant in NWoD

But, still, isnt the existence of 9/again, 8/again, rote in the Supernatural creatures usually related to their supernatural age/power?

Two things I'm not a fan of with PT that doesnt matter if it's CofD or NWOD:

I don't think any skill should be rote without a very good explanation. Army Snipers may be some of the most talented marksmen available, and even they don't shoot as if it is rote. So logically, people may argue it, but I can't think of a lot of important stuff that is rote. Tasks? Making coffee? Making a bed? Macaroni and Cheese? Perhaps those skills, but ALL uses of driving skill are considered rote because of high level training? So, by nature of training, a highly trained NASCAR driver can go psssh and do wheelies on a Ducati racing bike?

Ehhhhhhhhh...

If the assumption is that the supernatural types have 8/9/agains or rote rolls due to being stronger or faster than humans, older and having extended lifespans, or other supernatural elements that make them exceptional athletes or craftsmen, then I don't see where mere professional training would ever, in a mortal lifespan, equate to supernatural levels of skill.

So, to me, PT (be it CofD or NWOD) seems like character sheet padding and playing mortal with supernatural dice levels to avoid being limited to standard Attr+Skill rolls.

Even if the XP benefit issue is resolved in CofD, the spirit of the game, purpose behind the setting, and logic built into PT aren't taken into account.

PT doesn't sound right at all from a GM perspective to me, but from a player perspective? Helloooooo 9/again/rote on firearms skills.

surreality

@Ghost said in CofD and Professional Training:

But, still, isnt the existence of 9/again, 8/again, rote in the Supernatural creatures usually related to their supernatural age/power?

Then explain how anyone can get it from using a shotgun.

In other words, no, there is no indication that the mechanic is meant to be used exclusively or even primarily as a demonstration of supernatural ability.

ThatOneDude

It's weird the concern of 9again and Rote when you can stack specialties. Now granted rote is pretty slick but with PT you burn a WP which in a lot of situations isn't ideal for extended periods of time.

9again is pretty cool but on the probability scale adding dice to normal rolls is most likely more overpowered, more so at the lower levels of a dice roll (number of dice).

So for example. If we use firearms as an example and my character has stats like: Dex 2 and Firearms 2 that gives me a total of 4 dice with no tilts lowering the pool.

If I spend 5 XP to build up specialties related to firearms (Pistols, Revolvers, Colt 45, Antiques, and Aimed Shot). Now in a combat situation with my trusty antique colt 45 my dice pull can be 2 + 2 + 5 + 3 (add willpower) for 12 total dice which has a probability of about 35% - 39% chance of an exceptional success (5 successes) vs 2 + 2 w/rote (spend a WP) for a 4% - 5% chance of an exceptional success. Again that's showing the same XP cost.

Granted more dice with rote will give you significant gains but the biggest bang for your buck really is adding dice to increase probability.

Coin

@ThatOneDude said in CofD and Professional Training:

It's weird the concern of 9again and Rote when you can stack specialties. Now granted rote is pretty slick but with PT you burn a WP which in a lot of situations isn't ideal for extended periods of time.

9again is pretty cool but on the probability scale adding dice to normal rolls is most likely more overpowered, more so at the lower levels of a dice roll (number of dice).

So for example. If we use firearms as an example and my character has stats like: Dex 2 and Firearms 2 that gives me a total of 4 dice with no tilts lowering the pool.

If I spend 5 XP to build up specialties related to firearms (Pistols, Revolvers, Colt 45, Antiques, and Aimed Shot). Now in a combat situation with my trusty antique colt 45 my dice pull can be 2 + 2 + 5 + 3 (add willpower) for 12 total dice which has a probability of about 35% - 39% chance of an exceptional success (5 successes) vs 2 + 2 w/rote (spend a WP) for a 4% - 5% chance of an exceptional success. Again that's showing the same XP cost.

Granted more dice with rote will give you significant gains but the biggest bang for your buck really is adding dice to increase probability.

Again with this ridiculously stupid misconceptions of how stacking specialties works. Oy vey.

Derp

@Coin said in CofD and Professional Training:

@ThatOneDude said in CofD and Professional Training:

It's weird the concern of 9again and Rote when you can stack specialties. Now granted rote is pretty slick but with PT you burn a WP which in a lot of situations isn't ideal for extended periods of time.

9again is pretty cool but on the probability scale adding dice to normal rolls is most likely more overpowered, more so at the lower levels of a dice roll (number of dice).

So for example. If we use firearms as an example and my character has stats like: Dex 2 and Firearms 2 that gives me a total of 4 dice with no tilts lowering the pool.

If I spend 5 XP to build up specialties related to firearms (Pistols, Revolvers, Colt 45, Antiques, and Aimed Shot). Now in a combat situation with my trusty antique colt 45 my dice pull can be 2 + 2 + 5 + 3 (add willpower) for 12 total dice which has a probability of about 35% - 39% chance of an exceptional success (5 successes) vs 2 + 2 w/rote (spend a WP) for a 4% - 5% chance of an exceptional success. Again that's showing the same XP cost.

Granted more dice with rote will give you significant gains but the biggest bang for your buck really is adding dice to increase probability.

Again with this ridiculously stupid misconceptions of how stacking specialties works. Oy vey.

You keep saying this, @Coin, but even the folks over at Onyx Path are saying that specialties work exactly as @ThatOneDude said above. You can create house rules for your games about it, if you want, but dude, that is the way they are intended to work. That's not a "ridiculously stupid interpretation", that's an interpretation from the people who made the thing themselves.