A Constructive Thread About People We Might Not Like

[Paris]

@surreality said in A Constructive Thread About People We Might Not Like:

There's been... more of that than usual this month thus far, and it is really getting to be a concern, in the sense that it makes me wonder if it's worth sticking around or not. Not something I ever thought I'd be saying, either.

I'd be sad to see you go. You seem like a very empathetic and kind person.

@Coin said in A Constructive Thread About People We Might Not Like:

After what Sovereign did on Reno, I banned him when he came to Eldritch. I didn't wait for him to do something bad on Eldritch, because he's a shitty person I don't want on my game. Spider was pre-banned. These are people, not usernames, and changing their PC, going to a different game won't change that. Only a consistent, protracted, sincere change in attitude will, and even there, no one is under any obligation to give them that chance, especially when it's been given more than often enough, and always ended in calamity.

Your entire point is flawed, because you choose to grant a clean slate to people based on an arbitrary notion like "it's a new game". The action isn't justified by the reason. It's like saying, 'this man is a thief in Illinois, but in Michigan he's not'. No, dude, the guy's a thief, period--he may not have committed theft in Michigan, but that doesn't make him any less of a thief.

I agree with every word here, especially when her taunts on tumblr in response to the threads of today and yesterday have shown no repentance whatsoever and outright mention of her closeness with headstaff. It's not different this time, Derp.

[SparklesTheClown]

I certainly try to improve and try to make my contributions outweigh any negatives, as much as I can. I can't really understand the mindset of like, I don't know, just doing a lot of poisonous shit and then just not feeling bad about it.

[Three-Eyed Crow]

@HelloProject said in A Constructive Thread About People We Might Not Like:

I can't really understand the mindset of like, I don't know, just doing a lot of poisonous shit and then just not feeling bad about it.

I can't either, but people like this certainly exist. My grandmother's what I can only call a sociopath (I understand this is a term that's really hard to use clinically, but there is no other word for it). I'm not using this term hyperbolically. She is a person who seems entirely lacking in empathy and who is consistently toxic and emotionally abusive to everyone in our family, while expecting them to cater to anything she might want at a given moment. It's never enough, and it will never change. I'm thankfully removed enough from her that my contact with her has been minimal, but the destructive impact she's had on my mother's life and the lives of her siblings is pretty staggering if you were to step back and dissect it. These people don't "get better" and there's no way to deal with them except cutting off contact where possible (in our family, it isn't at this point, so we manage it to as much of a degree as it can be managed).

These people are also exceeding rare and I think it's really important to draw a distinction between consistently destructive personalities and people who...I don't know, just did stupid shit and were assholes about something. I've done stupid shit and been an asshole on occasion, I'm sure. Most days, though, I think I'm OK. Most of the people I meet through these games are pretty OK most days, even if on some days they're lulzy and dumb, or have problems that make them tough to deal with for a little while. It takes a lot for me to totally cut somebody off, and I don't think random assholery is really what cases like VASpider and Custodius are about.

[Arkandel]

@Three-Eyed-Crow said in A Constructive Thread About People We Might Not Like:

These people are also exceeding rare and I think it's really important to draw a distinction between consistently destructive personalities and people who...I don't know, just did stupid shit and were assholes about something. I've done stupid shit and been an asshole on occasion, I'm sure. Most days, though, I think I'm OK. Most of the people I meet through these games are pretty OK most days, even if on some days they're lulzy and dumb, or have problems that make them tough to deal with for a little while. It takes a lot for me to totally cut somebody off, and I don't think random assholery is really what cases like VASpider and Custodius are about.

For starters I'm sorry to hear that about your grandmother.

About the rest, I try to separate who someone is in real life and how they act or behave online. It's as much for pragmatic reasons - the anonymity and lack of empathy from being able to look at someone else in the eye makes most people simply act differently on the interwebs, which is more or less an established fact - but it's also for personal ones; basically I need to humanize you jerks.

I have to, or you're just letters in my screen, make-belief people whose feelings I don't need to worry about. I don't want to allow myself the luxury of imagining the person who just irked me is a terrible human being, or that the authoritative staff member who got in my face is some nasty basement dweller who needs this tiny bit of authority to make up for his sad life - that's the easy way out of feeling basic guilt for anyone else I encounter while I MU* and I don't behave like, well, I should.

So unless proven otherwise you're all awesome folks in your real lives and you should be proud of yourselves for it! It's just that some of you are roleplaying jerks on MSB.

[Paris]

@Derp said in A Constructive Thread About People We Might Not Like:

I mean, nevermind the fact that some games have rules written in, meant to enforce ethical staffing, that prevents anyone from receiving a scarlet letter based on reputation.

It's ok to amend the constitution when extraordinary circumstances merit change. MUSH rules, which are far less difficult to amend, are amended pretty regularly. Nothing is tying your hands.

And rules have never stopped her misbehavior.

Look at the last 24 hours on this forum and the no-less-than-3 threads that this topic is being talked about currently.

The unusual amount of discussion should indicate the seriousness of things.

But also, you wanted us to discuss it outside of your recruitment thread, so we are.

[surreality]

I don't really think it's entirely fair to dogpile @Derp here, though, and he's kinnnnnnnda taking all the lumps for this forum-side.

He's not the game owner, and the game owner is the one who has apparently made the call, at least according to Spider's post.

I know I wouldn't feel it quite fair if I was taken to task for decisions made by headstaff that I don't really have a say in, but have to enforce or relate to others, so, y'know. Something to keep in mind here.

[Paris]

@surreality said in A Constructive Thread About People We Might Not Like:

I don't really think it's entirely fair to dogpile @Derp here, though, and he's kinnnnnnnda taking all the lumps for this forum-side.

He's not the game owner, and the game owner is the one who has apparently made the call, at least according to Spider's post.

I know I wouldn't feel it quite fair if I was taken to task for decisions made by headstaff that I don't really have a say in, but have to enforce or relate to others, so, y'know. Something to keep in mind here.

I don't hold him responsible for the policies, but he's defending them, so we're responding to that.

I don't think anyone expects FH to change their minds, the only voice we've heard from there so far has doubled down.

Edit: so far, while we are addressing his posts directly, we've been pretty good about criticising the policy and not the player. Derp himself seems to have the best of intentions.

[Ganymede]

@Paris said in A Constructive Thread About People We Might Not Like:

I don't think anyone expects FH to change their minds, the only voice we've heard from there so far has doubled down.

Arx doubled down on Custodius, and changed course. Knowing FH's owner, I'm pretty sure she's listening. She has her reasons for doing what she's doing, but those may change. All I can hope for is that VASpider doesn't damage the game, whether she remains there or not.

[surreality]

@Ganymede From what I recall, she's a very kind-hearted person and tends to see the best in everyone in a very legit good person way. Especially people who seem energetic and creative, which Spider certainly does.

While we're not exactly close any more, we played together years ago elsewhere, and I'm going to be pissed if all of her work gets shot to hell by Spider getting up to her old tricks.

And the tumblr post really is a giant red flag to me that absolutely nothing has, or will likely ever, change.

[Paris]

Pretty much the above post verbatim, yeah.

[Thenomain]

@Derp said in A Constructive Thread About People We Might Not Like:

@Thenomain said in A Constructive Thread About People We Might Not Like:

Mind you, the court of popular opinion is not a recognized legal system.

@Rook said in A Constructive Thread About People We Might Not Like:

Wait, what? In MUdom? Oh yes it is. It is how we operate. It is what most MUs are all about, outside of theme!

Yeah. Pretty much this.

Because we have to have this discussion proves that it is not a notable nor lasting legal system. Because Spider has returned proves pretty soundly that the Court of Popular Opinion has some leverage but does not force anyone to do anything.

I strongly disagree with you both. We are having a very even discussion, and it's been noted that Anna, head of Fate's Harvest, is being trusted. Even if she wasn't, there's not much more we can do than complain or leave.

Maybe I have a stronger will than you? I doubt it. I've stood up to the Court multiple times; when I've sat down it's because someone with a respectful tone and logic has told me why I'm wrong.

I've stood up for other people as well. A lot of my time in Wora and some of it here has been telling people to chill out. Hell, a lot of people here do that. This isn't a court, this is the commons, the square that people go to shout and try to figure out what's going on. Good luck getting any two of us to agree on anything.

And when we do? There's something going on that's far more sensible than a Court of Popular Opinion. It's scary and impressive. Like now.

[Derp]

To be clear here: I don't think anyone is attaching me, though I do appreciate @Surreality for saying that. It's refreshing.

To be clear on another thing: Yes, the entire staff of Fate's Harvest is listening. We are aware of the feelings, we're in active discussion on the matter, and we take your concerns seriously.

What we are doubling down on is this: We are not going to remove a player before they have presented themselves as a problem on that game. This goes against the spirit of things that the Game Owner wants to see become canon there. So no amount of outcry is going to get us to magically remove the player before she has done so.

However, that doesn't mean that we aren't doing something. We've already shifted course a bit in light of these things, and continue to discuss ways to try and help handle the situation in a way that protects us and all of our players, both present and potential. While we haven't come to any solid conclusions yet, you're being heard. We just won't take the (in our opinion, drastic) measure of removing a player from the game before they present themselves as a problem. I know that this leaves some people disappointed, but that's just the way it is.

And on that note: We invite anyone who sees something shady going on to let us know. Staff can't be everywhere all the time, as players have pointed out, but the players also have to communicate with the staff if something suspicious is going down (beyond 'this person is present'). If you see something, say something. Preferably with some kind of log so that we can see it too.

One interesting thing about the game: logging is pretty heavy on most players' to-do lists. If you want to do more than the standard one xp a week, logs must be submitted. Pretty much everyone is aware of that, and scenes get logged pretty diligently, so logging is already in our nature. And we do read them.

So, as constructively as possible: We know. We hear you. We'll take action if it even starts to look like a problem. But so far, it doesn't look anything like that. If that changes, we'll be on it. Trust.

[Arkandel]

@Derp I attack no one. Not even VAS. It's your game to do with as you please.

My only objection, which still stands, was in having a hate thread about a specific person.

[Ganymede]

@Derp said in A Constructive Thread About People We Might Not Like:

What we are doubling down on is this: We are not going to remove a player before they have presented themselves as a problem on that game. This goes against the spirit of things that the Game Owner wants to see become canon there. So no amount of outcry is going to get us to magically remove the player before she has done so.

I can see Anna behind that. It's admirable, but it also dashes apart the idea of holding a person responsible for their destructive behavior in these games. And, as I said before, I cannot and will not recommend the game to anyone, and will advise against joining it if asked.

You mentioned in another thread about how unhealthy it is for us to apparently obsess over VASpider. I don't think any of us wants to think about her, especially those she has injured. But she keeps coming back because of the sentiment that is being espoused in the game's policy. So, the way I figure it, the only way to kill the conversation is for her to either stay the fuck away from the hobby or for the hobby to push her out.

I appreciate the candor.

[ThatGuyThere]

@Derp
I know you might not believe this considering we tend to not agree at all with each other, but I do mean this in a constructive manner. While I believe you and the rest of staff on the game have the best of intentions and goals, it does not matter. I, and I am sure many others reading have heard multiple staffers on multiple games say the same thing and have seen it all end the way it usually does.
Before knowing she was their if asked about FH my answer would have been I know nothing but probably worth a shot to try it. Now if asked about it I would have to tell the person I would recommend they avoid the place. I could do nothing else in good conscience.

[Paris]

@Derp said in A Constructive Thread About People We Might Not Like:

So, as constructively as possible: We know. We hear you. We'll take action if it even starts to look like a problem. But so far, it doesn't look anything like that. If that changes, we'll be on it.

Respectfully, it's not about you. We have seen and heard everything you have said come out of many other games' staffers, most of them idealistic and with the best of intentions. We believe that you are well-intentioned.

Trust.

That must be earned.

[Miss Demeanor]

@Derp It isn't a matter of trust anymore. By the time you act? It will be too late. The damage will have already been done. That is the point you and your fellow staffers don't seem to understand. By the time she's outed as a problem, she's already wrecked the game for the other players. I don't think you (meaning staff on FH) take seriously enough how much peer pressure and manipulation she and whatever little cadre of 'friends' will bring to bear on anyone that gets in her way. Its all well and good for you to say 'speak up' now. You aren't in the middle of suffering the consequences of having fallen into Spider's bad graces. There's a reason people would sooner leave a game than try to take her on. There's a reason that people have left the hobby after run-ins with her.

I am sorry to the people that stick around on FH. It seemed like a decent game with decent folk, I hope you all can find somewhere else to play when the crash inevitably happens.

[TwoGunBob]

I can't put all the mitigating factors onto Spider that caused me to just throw my arms up and walk away. It was very much a time invested with diminishing returns with just too much hoop jumping for a roleplaying session. I'd already thrown in the towel and only afterwards did it become clear why I was getting those diminishing returns. It was enough clarity to just decide to never reinvest that time again. I unplugged and got over my social anxiety enough to connect up with local gamers to do tabletop games again so I guess that's a constructive thing. I still stay plugged into the MU* community enough in case that one game comes along that will get me over that bad taste enough to reinvest.

[Paris]

@Miss-Demeanor said in A Constructive Thread About People We Might Not Like:

There's a reason that people have left the hobby after run-ins with her.

Or the posse she likes to assemble. Someone I know quit MUSHing entirely because of how that bunch harassed and hounded them off a game, OOC and IC, and then harangued them on offsite sites (including personal journals, which they had to make private) for close to a year afterward. Staff, of course, looked the other way.

I quit for a few years over that, came back when I was bored of being in bed from chemo. I was told I had a few months to live, so my give a fuck meter got recalibrated.

[Miss Demeanor]

@Paris Or this, yes. For all that she's calling people creepy on her Tumblr for 'stalking' her... she's not hesitated to do it herself or have her friends do it for her.