@Vorpal said in Comics Stuff:
No. I've got nothing, really. I don't see how they can pull this off without staining Cap.
The problem isn't (only) staining Cap. It's explaining how come he stopped Hydra from taking over the world the last 3487 times. Oh, and being around telepaths and mind readers for years who didn't pick this nugget up.
Some day I'd love to read a paper doing some research into why some inconsistencies in comics are okay, and others are not. This one I can understand, but for the reasons of how good the writing is to explain or even how good the writing is to not explain it.
I may have answered my own question, but when I try to read superhero comics the amount of inconsistency I see knocks me out of even trying, that there must be an explanation, however philosophical, about why, say, none of these people have aged in 60+ years is okay but other implausible ideas are not.
That is, a gigantic analysis of the fans of these comics.
@Thenomain
The unaging thing is explained by them only having been active for around 10 years or so in continuity.
Which is why Ben Grimm has gone from being a pilot in WW2 to being a test pilot for the military before becoming the things.
And Frank Castle went from being a recent Vietnam vet to being to being a vet from a non-named other conflict.
In general fans will ignore inconsistencies that give them what they want. For example it is shown that Skrulls revert back to their base form after death this is what tips of the heroes to Secret Invasion, that event was then used to undo the rather stupid and pointless killing of Mockingbird in the mid-nineties, since fans like this they ignore the fact that we seen Mocky well after death in the issue she dies in human form. Why cause it gave us what we want.
On ageing in particular it is not like characters in other fiction age much if it can be avoided. When you have live actors they have to age but look at the aging on any soap opera which actor changes they remain fairly constant or at least age at a much reduced rate after hitting adulthood. Or the Simpsons, Bart and Lisa have been in the same grade for over 20 years now.
Or Star Trek which rebooted rather then dealing with the aging of actors and there fore characters.
@Vorpal said in Comics Stuff:
I think I know what happened- the Cosmic Cube didn't restore Steve Rogers to youth-
It brought in a parallel universe Steve Rogers who was a HYDRA sleeper agent. His memories are therefore consistent with his history even if they are not consistent with o-
No. I've got nothing, really. I don't see how they can pull this off without staining Cap.
Well, given the telepathic Red Skull(the Cube in question was actually a small child with Cosmic Cube powers, for reference) lurking around the periphery of that particular situation and the scenes about Steve's Hydra indoctrination being completely gray save for a few splashes of red, this or some variation on it(editing Steve's actual history the same way that he once did Sam's seems likely, though I'm sure there'll be another twist or something on this concept) is almost certainly what's going on here.
Personally, I'm kind of apathetic bordering on rolling my eyes at Marvel and, really, DC Comics* seemingly having decided to compete to see who could spin the dumbest twist to draw some eyes to their perpetually flagging sales, but if this turns out to be a story about Steve(and Sam, who'll have even more time as 'the' Captain America before the status quo reasserts itself) and co. fighting to protect Steve's own core self and values from the Red Skull, I feel like the character will be fine in the long run, even if he'll probably be in for some Bucky-esque angst once it's all said and done.
(* Obviously, DC's specific flavor of dumb twist** is a wholly different animal, and I'm not in any way trying to trivialize the feelings of people who may be genuinely offended by the Cap reveal, etc. )
(** But, seriously, Geoff, Watchmen? Really?)
I will absolutely buy all of this. I used to be interested in taking Superhero Comic fans out with outright ridicule, but I never had any standing for it. It did become more of a curiosity about how one might describe the internal consistency that leads to the kind of Science Fiction statements like @Arkandel made, how someone would have known by now. I mean, he's right, but things like that are accepted in other situations. Therefore, there is an implied logic going on where some actions are hand waved and some are reviled.
If that logic is "because it makes a good story", I'd be happy with that. Captain America going against his very reason of being is not good story. It may be forgiven as the story is revealed, it may just be bad story out of the full context, but that's the kind of thing that interests me about Superhero Comics. Not the characters, but the story.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
@Thenomain said in Comics Stuff:
If that logic is "because it makes a good story", I'd be happy with that. Captain America going against his very reason of being is not good story. It may be forgiven as the story is revealed, it may just be bad story out of the full context, but that's the kind of thing that interests me about Superhero Comics. Not the characters, but the story.
Yeah I have no faith in them turning the current Cap thing into something good. I admit it might but I have no hopes.
Honestly I think the biggest issue with trying to maintain a continuity is the act that there are so many different creators telling the story. At various point in time there have been up to 5 authors currently handling Spiderman for example.
My personal advice for those wanting to start with comics is to look at particular creative team runs on titles rather then the series as a whole.
@ThatGuyThere said in Comics Stuff:
My personal advice for those wanting to start with comics is to look at particular creative team runs on titles rather then the series as a whole.
Yeah, but until you get into comics, how do you know what team you like? And unless that team involves someone with the brand recognition like Gaiman, how do you know what they're writing at any given time? That is, like Mushes, it seems like the best way to get into comics is either diving in and working it out on your own, or being introduced by someone else.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
@Thenomain said in Comics Stuff:
@ThatGuyThere said in Comics Stuff:
My personal advice for those wanting to start with comics is to look at particular creative team runs on titles rather then the series as a whole.
Yeah, but until you get into comics, how do you know what team you like? And unless that team involves someone with the brand recognition like Gaiman, how do you know what they're writing at any given time? That is, like Mushes, it seems like the best way to get into comics is either diving in and working it out on your own, or being introduced by someone else.
I usually pick out my preferred teams/writers by seeing what they've done out of mainstream continuities.
For example, I love Mark Waid, but I didn't realize that The Flash and his Impulse in the nineties were his until after I'd read Kingdom Come, and Irredeemable. And then it all made sense.
@Thenomain That's a big difference between you and I. Character is more important than story to me. I will forgive small plot holes, inane bad guys, or hollow love stories, if you show me character and character development. For me, story just connects dots and can be fun but not as meaningful.
Also, to anyone complaining about sticking with consistency, there are like 600 issues of Spider-Man. How in the world can anything remain consistent? Both DC and Marvel do what they have to do in differing ways, but let's not pretend they don't /have/ to do it.
@Thenomain said in Comics Stuff:
@ThatGuyThere said in Comics Stuff:
Yeah, but until you get into comics, how do you know what team you like? And unless that team involves someone with the brand recognition like Gaiman, how do you know what they're writing at any given time? That is, like Mushes, it seems like the best way to get into comics is either diving in and working it out on your own, or being introduced by someone else.
I agree with this completely, it is like finding anything else you like be it tv or music or other writing. Ask people whose tastes are similar to yours and give it a shot. Or do like I did with the first CDs i bought back in high school and pick at random based on pretty cover art. (I got lucky with the cds for the most part)
Though honestly my recommendation for comics since the mid-aughts skews heavily towards non-superhero stuff, not because I dislike superheroes but almost no one writes them in a way that is fun any more.
As such for anyone looking for a good read pick up the Fables trade paperbacks, start with volume one, they are awesome. (At least until they defeat the big bad then the title lost a lot for me, but that was 75 issues in so likely 11 or 12 volumes in the collected form.)
Edit to add another recommendation, 100 Bullets, started slow got awesome widely available in trade paperback still.
As far as genre Fables is Urban fantasy with the characters from the various tales living in NYC main character is Bigby Wolf (bid bad wolf)
100 Bullets is crime/conspiracy drama.
Character is an incredibly important aspect of fiction. Writing a character wrong is still bad writing, so I think we're on the same page here.
I just don't usually see where one inconsistency (never aging because of constant reboots) is acceptable and another (sleeper agent) is not. To me, it's because of the fiction implied by the established foundations.
This is why Female Thor was no big deal. Nor Superman quitting America. They were character consistent. Therefore, is the internal consistency entirely based on character?
It's interesting to me.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
@Thenomain Is it maybe because after the story ends we know how it played out and can more easily see it in perspective? For instance, I think it was awesome that Jason Todd got brained with a crowbar by Joker. The next Robin was better and then later when he did come back, Jason Todd was better as Red Hood. That being said, at the time, I think I would have been really upset (had I been a comic guy then).
It could end up being that this is the greatest Captain America story ever told, we just don't know yet. And since comics has crapped the bed so often, people who read comics are sort of jumping down on it right away. We do that in books and in movies all the time, but they're not episodic like television programs or like comics.
It's definitely interesting to me too.
@tangent said in Comics Stuff:
@Thenomain Is it maybe because after the story ends we know how it played out and can more easily see it in perspective? For instance, I think it was awesome that Jason Todd got brained with a crowbar by Joker. The next Robin was better and then later when he did come back, Jason Todd was better as Red Hood. That being said, at the time, I think I would have been really upset (had I been a comic guy then).
I think readers were too busy being upset with the stupid way he was brought back then that he was brought back. Superboy- Prime retcon punch. If you don't know what that means don't ask please it is stupider then it sounds and requires a lot of words.
Hahhahahahhhahahhahahahahah Superboy Prime.
God, I hate you DC. Eff you for what you did to Wally and don't try and get me back you rat bastards. Dan DiDio! I DONT LIKE YOU! BE BETTER AT YOUR JOB!
@tangent said in Comics Stuff:
@Thenomain Is it maybe because after the story ends we know how it played out and can more easily see it in perspective? For instance, I think it was awesome that Jason Todd got brained with a crowbar by Joker. The next Robin
Unless "the next Robin" was also Jason Todd (whomever he is), then this is entirely different than retcons and reboots. It is absolutely fictionally continuitous for there to be a stream of different people in the role of Robin, or even Batman, or Superman, as long as those aren't all Billy Ward, Bruce Wayne, or Clark Kent.
@Thenomain said in Comics Stuff:
Character is an incredibly important aspect of fiction. Writing a character wrong is still bad writing, so I think we're on the same page here.
The fundamental difference between novels and comics is the same person always tends to write the former but the latter is taken care of by a paid employee; so on top of style (Bendis likes big dialogue boxes, Miller likes exposition and prose, etc) eras themselves change, fashions (in terms of what's popular) do as well, and in the end the editors in chief strategize differently -- when your boss says you have to downplay the X-Men because the company doesn't have the movie rights to them, you do it.
What I am personally peeved by is when gimmicks take over or a book reads more like someone's pet project than what it says on the label. This Cap thing is meant to get attention - that's it; everyone knows it'll be reversed in a bit so what's the point? Similarly if I pick up Spider-man, Thor or whatever it's because I want to read those iconic characters; if it's Doc Ock or a female Thor it's... not. The title feels misleading, it's a bait and switch.
@Thenomain said in Comics Stuff:
I just don't usually see where one inconsistency (never aging because of constant reboots) is acceptable and another (sleeper agent) is not. To me, it's because of the fiction implied by the established foundations.
It's because Captain America was created by Jewish writers as a way to show the American way defeating what amounts to Nazis. Even his creation was sort of a thumb in the eye to that, as Steve Rogers was a frail young man who got turned into the ubermensch by the US.
So, maybe they are going to make this some triple cross, whatever, mind control, random comic book bullshit plotline. I'd say they PROBABLY are, as you can't just leave Captain America a Hydra agent and expect to get more ongoing stories out of the character.
That's cheap writing, but it's also the bread and butter of comics. Still, you wondered why the inconsistency was not ok for this char, and that's why people are freaking out about it - prematurely, if you ask me. It will be just another bad storyline attempt to generate interest in characters that have been around so long every other story has pretty much been told.
@Kanye-Qwest said in Comics Stuff:
It's because Captain America was created by Jewish writers as a way to show the American way defeating what amounts to Nazis.
I get what you're saying but Superman was also created by Jerry Siegel who was Jewish IIRC and there was at least one (fairly well regarded) elseworlds comic placing him as both a Nazi and USSR superhero with zero backlash.
@Kanye-Qwest
I agree some of the reactions I have seen are a bit much. Let the story finish before tearing it apart, and the mind control plot is not new to comics or Cap himself.
And slight correction on Caps creation he was not created to show the defeat of what amounts to Nazis but literal Nazis it was 1941 after all.
I think one of the big reasons people are getting this upset is that it is Cap, definitely Marvel's longest running Iconic character. Yes Submariner was around first , and various other characters have been more popular for periods over the years but Cap is the only person that Marvel that has sustained popularity along the lines of Supes and Bats.
@Arkandel said in Comics Stuff:
@Kanye-Qwest said in Comics Stuff:
It's because Captain America was created by Jewish writers as a way to show the American way defeating what amounts to Nazis.
I get what you're saying but Superman was also created by Jerry Siegel who was Jewish IIRC and there was at least one (fairly well regarded) elseworlds comic placing him as both a Nazi and USSR superhero with zero backlash.
Which is not the same as taking the mainstream version of the character and doing that. That's why it's an Elseworlds story. If they had done What If... Captain America Were An Agent Of HYDRA?! nobody would care.
@Vorpal said in Comics Stuff:
No. I've got nothing, really. I don't see how they can pull this off without staining Cap.
The problem isn't (only) staining Cap. It's explaining how come he stopped Hydra from taking over the world the last 3487 times. Oh, and being around telepaths and mind readers for years who didn't pick this nugget up.
