The Basketball Thread

[BobGoblin]

I think Wilbon on PTI hit it spot on with Giannis which is something I couldn't verbalize as well but have thought.

He's an amazing athletic talent; however he's extremely one dimensional. For an NBA player he has a limited skill set that is simply not going to translate in these drawn out series as well.

1. He cannot shoot consistently.
2. He has one move-counter move (Crossover into a drop spin) that he uses way to often. These are the best coaches and vets.

With these constraints, pinching Giannis down and forcing everyone else to beat you is going to be the strategy; and expecting Lopez to have a 30 point performance all the time is laughable. Now in about another 2-3 years, Giannis will expand his skill set to match his talent further. He's not at his cap; and the Bucks may still win the series, but I wish them luck against the Warriors (or really any team in the West).

We cannot pretend that the East is somehow 'better' than it was last year or the previous 8 LeBron years . If the East was terribad when LeBron played in it and moonwalked into 8 Finals appearances, then it cannot suddenly be 'better' with him gone. The East was the JV Division last year. This year it's more like Freshmen.

[Ganymede]

Toronto in 6.

[Warma Sheen]

Everyone knows Kawhi Leonard as the Raptor offensive juggernaut. But Coach Nurse (yeah, I like them better just for that name) switched Leonard to defend Giannis since game 3 and they've won ever since.

Saw the game by accident today. Now, we all know the Bucks are one dimensional, but damn they are murdering him on fouls. Gasol in particular. And he's just kind of taking it. Someone, even if it isn't Giannis, needs to put one them Raptors on their asses. If the refs aren't going to call the fouls, a swift punch to someone's jaw will force them to ratchet down the overaggressiveness and give Giannis room to breathe (or better yet, play basketball). Using the Hack a Shaq defense on him is a bit of a desperate play and doesn't make Toronto look very good, but it seems to be working. Seems like they just want to get to the finals and don't care how they get there.

Also, Klay Thompson's snub from the All-NBA team is a joke. The fact that it limits the value of his next contract is an even bigger joke.

[Ganymede]

@Warma-Sheen said in The Basketball Thread:

Using the Hack a Shaq defense on [Giannis] is a bit of a desperate play and doesn't make Toronto look very good, but it seems to be working. Seems like they just want to get to the finals and don't care how they get there.

So?

The stats don’t really reflect your comment. Giannis has only 9 free throws. He made only 4 of them. That’s hardly a Hack a Shaq defensive jam, or, as others might call it, old school basketball.

Even supposing they were, so what? Giannis wasn’t the Bucks problem. Again, they were inconsistent; Bledsoe showed up finally, but Middleton did not. They needed more than 6 points from him.

The story here is not just Toronto’s defense, but the Bucks lack of focus. They turned the ball over in stunningly bad ways, like when Leonard got a free steal on a bad pass in the 3rd that really sparked the Raptors. They put their focus so much on Leonard that VanFleet got a stupid number of uncontested 3s, most of which he drained. Everyone talks about the Bucks’ depth, but the Raptor bench is really effective, even if they are only using three of them.

All that aside, Hack a Shaq is working because it can work. Budenholzer is overthinking and making too many adjustments out of the Bucks normal game plan. Keep jamming Giannis in until the Raptors wear out, then let him score or
kick, and make sure those shooters have practiced their shot.

Leonard can’t net 70 points on his own (right?), so defend his mates better.

[Arkandel]

You know what really amuses me? How quickly the narrative shifts based on the most recent result.

Do the Bucks drop one game to Boston? They can't handle teams with competent bigs.

Do they crush Boston to pieces? They are the Next Big Thing and their only problem is whether they can keep this roster going forward.

Do they win game 1 then smash the Raptors on game 2? They are slight favorites to beat the unstoppable Warriors (this was even before KD was injured!). And the Raptors? They are trash, Kwahi is gone for sure.

Do the Raptors win games 3 to 5? Kawhi stays, Giannis is one-dimensional, an one-trick pony really. Is he even an MVP caliber player if he can't win in the playoffs at age 23 in his team's first playoffs run in 35 years?

Man.

[Ganymede]

As I said.

Six.

[Arkandel]

This was quite the grueling series, only to decide which team gets decimated by the Warriors.

[Warma Sheen]

@Arkandel Yeah. Its really ridiculous. The talking heads have a very short memory. Its just evidence that they don't know any more than the rest of us.

@Ganymede I agree, the stats don't reflect it at all. Cause the refs aren't calling the fouls. He was getting brutalized (at least he was last game, missed tonight's) and he was barely getting any calls. Its annoying because when only the floppers and complainers get the calls it just encourages that behavior.

[Arkandel]

Being a Torontonian, I fucking hate Drake. What a miserable 'ambassador' for the city he is, showing zero class. A team lost, and he's taunting them right off the floor. Show some class.

[Ganymede]

I’d like to point out that the Raptors thumped the Warriors twice this season.

I think we are in for a treat.

[Arkandel]

@Ganymede Regular season Warriors. These guys don't care any more, they are too experienced to. They keep the switch for the playoffs.

There are few things scarier in basketball than the Q3 Dubs.

[Ganymede]

@Arkandel

Bucks won the regular season. When the Raptors figured them out, they pulled off four straight wins, two from behind.

It’ll be a good series.

[Warma Sheen]

@Ganymede I don't think so either. I'm saying it'll be a fairly solid drubbing of the Raptors. They just don't match up anywhere. I'm not expecting much. Watching them without KD has been fun, but there just isn't much competition (outside of the Rockets) - not just in individual skills and ability but the way they can play together. Its just another level.

[Testament]

I'm going to be fucking salty for months.

I was hoping for someone other than the Warriors to win the Finals.

Fuck it, I hope the Raptors get destroyed.

[Warma Sheen]

I can't remember the exact specifics, but someone said the Warriors aren't demonstrably better than any other team except in one very important way. They broke it down as a math problem predicated on the Warriors exceptionally high 3 point shooting percentage. Basically the math of shooting 3s at the high rate of something like 40% generates more points than other teams... Something like that. But the Warriors and the Rockets shoot 3s at a much higher percentage than teams in the past and now shoot it much more often. That is what gives them the edge on teams.

It sounds like a pretty simple concept, but players just never had the ability to be able to exploit the 3 as well as they do now. Look at the number of 3s Curry shot each year he played and you see a very obvious connection to their success.

What it came down to was the sharpshooters give them a significant edge on points. Its one reason that the Warriors are "better" without KD, percentage-wise. They've only lost one game (I think) all year without KD playing. It just comes down to math and shot selection. KD hits midrange jumpers and is undoubtedly great getting into the lane. But their percentage of 3s (which they shoot more without KD), beats his higher percentage of 2s, which he takes more of.

Visually, he controls the court and the game and looks impossible to guard, but at the end of the day, the win is about who scores more points. And the winner is... math.

[Ganymede]

@Testament said in The Basketball Thread:

I'm going to be fucking salty for months.

I don't see why.

The Bucks will have Giannis at the end of the day. Middleton and the other free agents would be stupid not to resign. There remains a substantial chance that Leonard goes elsewhere, so this is probably Toronto's only shot.

Bucks fans have many more chances to see their team raise the trophy. Toronto does not.

Everyone loves an underdog.

Keep doubting, folks, and I'll keep the faith. It was unlikely that the Raptors got this far, but they are better than Portland.

[Warma Sheen]

@Testament How long were you holding out that hope? Didn't that die with the Rockets? If not, you're an optimistic type. I was disappointed the Bucks didn't get farther, but they weren't gonna beat the Warriors. Maybe take a game or two but that's about it. Still, like @Ganymede said, they definitely have more time. Its a process. Now that they've proven themselves, other free agents (better free agents) will be more likely to join a small market team like the Bucks and have a legit shot at competing. It is weird to think about seasons in terms of what it does for you a year or two from now, but its true. This was an excellent audition and an open invitation for someone to come earn their ring. But of the Bucks that are there, I'm sure most if not all would stay on. But I don't think anyone on that team is requirement to keep besides Giannis. Everyone else is replaceable. That was also proven in this run.

I've been rooting for the Raptors for a while. They have the best mascot in the league (no, not Drake) and that's enough to earn my support. Who doesn't love dinosaurs!? I really thought Lowry and DeRozan were gonna be able to get there some day. They seemed to make a good pair. But the swap for Leonard was obviously the thing that put the Raptors over the top (or maybe the new coach?). Still they need better role players. They seem to be filled with people who are slightly above average in most areas. Lowry has been a long time Raptor but continues to show that he just doesn't have the juice needed to win a ring, despite flashes of brilliance where it looks like he might break out. Then he disappears for weeks at a time without a similar showing. He and DeRozan still seem to be on the same level, though - not good enough to win a championship.

Cleveland was unlikely to win in the East last year, and yet they did. I'm still not sure how, but they did. And the end was swift and merciful for them too.

[Ganymede]

@Warma-Sheen said in The Basketball Thread:

I've been rooting for the Raptors for a while. They have the best mascot in the league (no, not Drake) and that's enough to earn my support. Who doesn't love dinosaurs!?

The Raptors have Nav Bhatia, the owner and president of Mississauga Hyundai. I grew up watching the man's commercials locally, and he is the Superfan of the North now. His story is inspirational and worth reading about.

One game down. Three to go.

The Warriors aren't going to win a game in Toronto if they can't defend the paint. Siakam and Gasol had their way with them.

[Arkandel]

@Ganymede Boogie will shake the rust off. But I think KD is done for the season, and if the rumors about his achilles are correct... this could severely impact him going forward, too.

Also Kawhi had a quiet game for his standards. He hit one big three but otherwise he deferred - which is a good sign.

As for VanVleet, wtf.

[Warma Sheen]

Boogie wasn't the only one with rust, and I respect everyone's opinion about him (one I don't share), but the Finals is not the time to come back from months off to try to work back into the team. Great basketball is about rhythm and playing together on both ends of the floor. Cousins does not have that with this team. He hasn't been there long enough, in general and recently. He looked slow and stiff and I hope not to see him again unless they have a huge lead.

Toronto played an amazing game. Siakam was definitely the MVP. But he's got to keep up that pace and production the rest of the series. I'm not sure that he can, but its possible. Kyrie did it against the Warriors. Maybe Siakam can too.

Now, here's what I find curious:

The Warriors, down for pretty much all game, only took 4 3-pointers the entire fourth quarter (one each from Jerebko, McKinnie, Cook, and Curry). Both Thompson and Curry were shooting 50% from 3, well over what is considered 'good'. So how is it that between both Curry and Thompson they take only a single 3 point attempt, their signature shot, in the entire 4th quarter?

They were 3/10 in the first quarter (all makes by Curry), 3/7 in the second quarter, 4/9 in the third quarter. That's 10/26 for the game up to the fourth (not counting a half court throw at the end of the 3rd). That's 38% as a team (their season average behind league leader Spurs at 39%), while both Curry (4-8) and Thompson (3-6) were shooting 50% from behind the arc. All that to say they weren't shooting particularly poorly and had plenty of shot opportunities... so what gives?

Cause if I didn't know better, it would look like they weren't trying very hard to win that game, despite the fact that it looked like they weren't trying very hard to win that game. I've definitely seen them coast on medium through the first half of games, but they've always picked it up in the third through the end. Not here. They repeatedly passed up 3 point shots to drive in and take contested 2 pointers, especially in the fourth. If its an open lane, I can see that, but when you need points, that's not necessarily the best option. Add to that, neither Curry nor Thompson were shooting over 50% from inside the arc. So at the most crucial points of the game, they're passing up 3 point shot selection for shots worth less that they've been making at a lower percentage? Now, I'm not normally a conspiracy theorist, but...

I don't know. Maybe I'm tilting at windmills. Cause the other thing I noticed was that no one else seemed to notice. I haven't heard or read anyone talking about the fact that Curry and Thompson aren't shooting 3s at the end of a losing game in the finals where they are only down between 7 and 10 points. I find that odd. At least worth mentioning. Apparently, no one else does.