FCs on Comic MUs

[Lotherio]

@ixokai said in FCs on Comic MUs:

Seriously, all of you on this wrongfun whining and nitpicking and all OC's are the only sane way to comic, blah blah.

Also, I may have used wrongfun, but only to point out I'm tired of wrong fun. Honestly, I'm speaking from opinion, I'd prefer OC over FC these days. My way is not the right way either, not by a long shot.

Edit: Marvel1963 approached comics from a good standpoint. I app'ed in there way back, just not enough activity at my time of day. It was painless and oddly enough, I took a canon character and changed nothing of their history because their history was pre-1963 (Night Raven). I'd definitely recommend the game, but its nothing like general comic mu* trends.

[Roz]

Yeah, mostly what I get from this question on true comics MU*s is "I'm really glad that when I was staffing on Marvel games that they were movieverse games." Same effect as the Marvel1963: not having to wade through tons of comics canon.

[ixokai]

@kanye-qwest said in FCs on Comic MUs:

@ixokai said in FCs on Comic MUs:

Seriously, all of you on this wrongfun whining and nitpicking and all OC's are the only sane way to comic, blah blah.

I never said that so i dunno what you're on. Maybe you quoted the wrong person? Maybe you didn't really read my statement?

But that's part of the issue, too. I have a hard enough time, on the game I am part of, making people accept what I define for the setting. I'm glad your experience has been so breezy but let me tell you: mine has NOT. So, I'm not wrongfunning anyone. I'm saying what I would not do, and why. And now I'm restating what I already said, because that appears to be my fucking lot in life.

Sorry, that wasn't clear. That part of the response was to others, in general. I should have delineated the first section which was to you and the second section which was a general comment better.

[Prototart]

@ganymede said in FCs on Comic MUs:

I can see how people may believe there to be a massive discussion about timelines on other games. I mean, it seems that there's an awful lot of discussion of this nature for a game like UH, for example, but I'd like to hear it from those players.

The problems I've had and the arguments I've seen figuring out wtf is going on/has happened/exists/how anything reconciles together/whatever have really all been on potpourri games but from what everybody's said I don't think my experience is a standard one

[Lotherio]

@prototart said in FCs on Comic MUs:

@ganymede said in FCs on Comic MUs:

I can see how people may believe there to be a massive discussion about timelines on other games. I mean, it seems that there's an awful lot of discussion of this nature for a game like UH, for example, but I'd like to hear it from those players.

The problems I've had and the arguments I've seen figuring out wtf is going on/has happened/exists/how anything reconciles together/whatever have really all been on potpourri games but from what everybody's said I don't think my experience is a standard one

The more open discussions (or debates on those topics) are related to potpourri games. As staff on single canon places with cutoffs, as @Kanye-Qwest west indicated, its defining the cutoff or start (even as Year One sometimes) and then having to defend the cutoff, as staff. Even if knowing what timelines or dimensions or alternative universes there may be, there's always going to be someone who wants certain aspects in a favorite FC that doesn't always fit with that theme. It does take defense of it, at the expense of saying no and the player accepting it or wanting to argue their case more. It just is what it is really. But its one thing that can lead to burnout or just headache in general. Most players are pretty good about accepting, some are not. The more popular the place, the more staff defend their cutoff/timeline/theme or cave and open the flood gates a little more.

I'm over potpourri, I would prefer to see more original theme/takes on comics (including ideas like Marvel1963 vs just 'year one'). Picking a set story-arc/time/cutoff even in single canon, I'm reluctant of because it would take understanding of how it all fits together and canno-verse comic books are overwhelming complex.

[Roz]

okay wtf is a potpourri game

[Lotherio]

@roz said in FCs on Comic MUs:

okay wtf is a potpourri game

I think it was meant, in this thread, to talk about the multi-verse comic places; ie we accept marvel/dc/addon/etc.

[Arkandel]

Yeah, if I play on a comic book MU* it will need to be absolutely based on a specific time period or, even better, a book run. Say, place it in Joss Whedon's Astonishing X-Men period, allow only mutants as playable characters, give information as needed to clarify what the rest of the setting was like (the Avengers roster, major world events) and go to town.

I don't know if it's really restricting that I can't play Captain Atom in such a game. It's like saying a fantasy game has to allow every humanoid race, or every WoD game has to include every supernatural type of PC.

[saosmash]

Can confirm: it's great to specifically define that your game is its own damn AU and fuck "what happens in the comics". Robot comics game representin'? I don't even know, I'm on so much caffeine right now you guys.

[Deleted]

The only good comic to base a game on is Transmetropolitan.

[Prototart]

@roz said in FCs on Comic MUs:

okay wtf is a potpourri game

Sorry

I guess the preferred nomenclature is "crossover" but, like... to ME, personally, that'd be something like "Marvel/DC," or "Marvel/Wildstorm," or whatever - and some places are "Marvel/DC/Archie/this cartoon I liked as a kid + now this TV show I saw last night and liked and now it's a new part of the theme" so "potpourri" sounded better in my head

[bored]

@ixokai said in FCs on Comic MUs:

@bored said in FCs on Comic MUs:

I don't find this attitude productive, personally.

It takes a certain mindset to run plot. It takes certain mindset to run plot your character is in and not consume it yourself. These mindsets aren't exclusively what I think a good iconic character should be played as.

To tie, "plays iconic character" to "able to run good plot" together is something I don't feel comfortable with.

First, as a couple people already kind of clarified, 'plot' is a bit of a short-hand here and note that I talk about 'doing things for others' in more general terms as well. If you have ways as an iconic-player to meaningfully to contribute that isn't strictly a 'PRP', such as creating regular team RP at the base, that's a reasonable alternative. It's just hard to give quick terminology for those alternatives. But you're not creating stuff for people, there's a problem.

You seem to want to limit this to the very fewest number of players (ie only to strict 'faction leader' types), but this is the attitude we tend to see on these games by default, and the behavior we see by default is camped characters, Spider Man having coffee once a week, and the people who do run things quickly burning out because there's not enough of them. This is just the tragedy of the commons in MU form: meaningful (non 1-on-1 relationship) RP is a public good, and unless you create structures to obligate people to support that public good, it is quickly exhausted.

You can shrug at this, but the problem will still be there, slowly killing the game.

I agree, if you want a certain type of character that tends to be the center of attention, you need to be willing to encourage and allow others to shine in their moments.

But I don't agree this means that they need to run plot.

I'm also not sure what third way you're implying here. Either you're a person who promotes and creates story, or you're a person who largely consumes it. And while there's nothing wrong with consuming, you need the creators for your game to function. If staff isn't doing it, players need to. And you need to motivate them somehow. Do you have a better (or even alternative) way to do this, or is your 'solution' just to throw up your hands and hope it happens? See above.

And I'm not even talking about huge, complicated, far-reaching storylines. Just that if you can't emit some of the Sinister Six out causing problems, I don't think you have any business playing Spider Man (who notably, doesn't really have a 'sit and lead meetings' alternative RP option, either). And if you don't have the attitude that you can participate in a scene you're 'running' without totally god-moding and invalidating anyone else, you're also not the sort of player that should have these characters. It's not even fucking hard.

Whether you're a plot runner or not, having Super Man show up to a scene and pose 'Supes zips around faster than light, ignoring all the enemy attacks, and punches everyone unconscious' is fucking horrible and shows zero comprehension of how to RP comic tropes. Just don't do that thing.

[Ganymede]

@bored said in FCs on Comic MUs:

I'm also not sure what third way you're implying here. Either you're a person who promotes and creates story, or you're a person who largely consumes it.

There are three types of players presented: (1) plot-runners; (2) story promoters; and (3) consumers. Plot-running is different than promoting story; story promoters are the sort of folks that RP with others often, provides entertainment for other players, and, on an OOC level, helps get new and old players involved in things. That's different than a plot-runner, who, as the identification suggests, actually runs plots or stories for people.

We're all consumers, so instead, I'll focus on the other two characteristics. From them, there are four types of people: (1) runs and promotes; (2) runs but does not promote; (3) does not run but promotes; and (4) neither runs nor promotes.

You want (1)s. (2)s come on board to run stories for others, but otherwise aren't around; these are rare, but I've seen them. I fall into (3)s mostly because I rarely run events (because of schedule and time), but when I'm on I try to involve as many people as I can. (4)s aren't necessarily bad to have, but you can't rely on them to keep going.

Just my opinion.

[Lotherio]

@bored said in FCs on Comic MUs:

And I'm not even talking about huge, complicated, far-reaching storylines. Just that if you can't emit some of the Sinister Six out causing problems, I don't think you have any business playing Spider Man (who notably, doesn't really have a 'sit and lead meetings' alternative RP option, either). And if you don't have the attitude that you can participate in a scene you're 'running' without totally god-moding and invalidating anyone else, you're also not the sort of player that should have these characters.

This bears some conversation to the genre of comic mu*s in general. Even as potpourri/cross-over has come up. I can't say when it became standard, but villain's as PCs is one of those elements that may have made some folks gun shy of doing this just. I don't want to distract from your point, any FC should run out, meet up with some villain, let others in and have fun. Its not some PrP, its just doing something, keeping others involved, running a little something that is sphere appropriate. I concur more FC level, especially iconic level characters, should be capable of doing this (and just being available in general as has been noted)

Spider Man should have some level of authority to bring in common foes for himself within his sphere, and allow those nearby to actively help deal with it.

But, I can see the reluctance of bringing in the Vulture for a one shot, let alone some recurring nemesis, who gets Spidey into some trouble and other players are there to help him out so they all figure out some team work and save the day, or not with Vulture getting away with the goods to harass Spidey again. Just that he could well show up as a PC next week, or was played last month. With personal story and plots, I tend to run towards in the moment if its suitable, bring on some villain, deal with aftermath later and had it come back to bite; 'Hey you, we the staff don't want any named Villains touched even if they're not on the staff only-NPC list because they could become players.' I think last time involved Wrecking Crew (Thor foes (backstory) that have battled Defenders (1st Appearance) and street levels up to Avengers and Cap), maybe they thought these goons should only be utilized by Thor, I'm sure no one wanted to play any of them.

I think, and this is most likely just me, that comics tend towards PvE but with villains allowed as PCs it sort of skews it towards a necessity of PvP where, if iconic level PCs can't run standard villains by name, it makes them more reluctant to do this (run the Sinister Six as Spiderman). I know, it doesn't stop Spidey from coffee RP only or hanging out in 'Bedroom' with Mary Jane only simply because of this, but makes me curious how many of the 'good' facheads/story tellers/etc, or players in iconic level positions, do lean towards that reluctance because of the opening/allowing of villains as PC'able?

[The Tree of Woe]

I would honestly say, myself, MOST villains are not suitable as PCs. PCs should probably fall into the realm of protagonists.

An antagonist, especially on a comic book MU*, should be a bit a player can pick up for a plot and then put away as needed. Nobody needs to be playing Apocalypse as their primary toon, that devaules Apocalypse and if he's actually active stresses other people the f--k out.

I used to love playing the occasional villain but looking back I wish I had realized this a decade ago.

Plus I automatically assume anyone apping Mr. Sinister as a long term character these days is some sort of creep.

[bored]

@ganymede This is a good breakdown, but I don't think it's an argument against the fact that you may want to restrict the higher-demand characters to the more desirable of those categories, and you admit that 1s are the most desirable. My policy would include the 2s as well, probably.

If you can figure out a way to identify 3s and give them a sort of secondary precedence after the 1s, that's fine... but I'm not sure how realistic that is outside of friend casting (and we've argued on this topic before, re uh, 'theater casting' and whatnot).

@Lotherio Obviously I'm talking about scenarios where villains are not highly played and out running most of the stories themselves, and where the game policy allows people to NPC them, but this seems like the norm (it was on UH). It's great if people PC them, but in my experience it isn't common, and most of the time people just NPC'ed villains they were not playing from their various hero alts.

The concern of villains suddenly getting picked up and played and there being discontinuity... I mean that's true of playing with literally any PC on these games, as people drop them constantly and they get picked up the next day and everything is wiped. So I don't see that as being particular to Villains or an argument against using them.

[Prototart]

@the-tree-of-woe said in FCs on Comic MUs:

I would honestly say, myself, MOST villains are not suitable as PCs. PCs should probably fall into the realm of protagonists.

I think it depends on the villain and there are definitely some who shouldn't be played but I wouldn't say MOST

There are some, like... Carnage, Zasz, Empath, Dr Light, where it's just like - I mean a) I don't think they're gonna contribute much and b) it throws a TON of red flags up for me when somebody wants a char like that

And I definitely think some of the plot villains shouldn't be open, like, Sinister and Doom (unless you're doing like an ultra specific Future Foundation era game) and Apocalyse and people on that level, people who when they show up at all generally it's gonna be a really big deal. (Edit / MAYBE on a limited basis where you're "playing" then as part of a plot?) Definitely not guys like Dormammu or Thanos or Darkseid who're just massive cosmic threats

But, like, The Thunderbolts? Most of Flash's bad guys? Most of Spider-Man's bad guys? I think those can be totally valid player chars who contribute to stuff and won't just totally throw off the theme by being around way too much

[Prototart]

Okay so reading that back I'm pretty sure all of it can strip down to "I think villains whose powers, personalities and motivations let them actually socialize in non-predatory ways outside of evil lairs aren't bad"

[Tempest]

Moonstone best villain.

[mietze]

Reading up on all the comic MU stuff makes me glad I never tried them, honestly it is pretty stunning to me that OCs are so disdained! Since I often like the worlds/themes of a genre or place more than I enjoy endless chaining to source material detail (and yes, I understand from reading wikipedia that comic book FCs probably have ten million ways you can go with any given character since they like to rewrite/mix up/alt universe it up) that I would not wish to offend someone by playing a beloved character "wrong" because I didn't know as much about them as a true fangirl should.

I'm not a huge comics fan (though I love reading about them as well as listening to friends talk about them). But I have gone to a few events for comics fans as the driver/interested companion/for interesting peoplewatching/because I really enjoy people, and I have seen people almost literally froth at the mouth over canon and deviations and stuff.

It seems like if you're not a totally ovaries to the wall fan person, but wanted to try out a new mush experience you never had before, that you'd want to pick either a super obscure (but how would you know if it was?!) or OC character!