Oct 12, 2017, 10:50 PM
@wizz Yeah, and moving those to an "Old Ads" section could clean that up considerably.
Make MSB great again!
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@wizz Yeah, and moving those to an "Old Ads" section could clean that up considerably.
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@arkandel said in Make MSB great again!:
@thenomain said in Make MSB great again!:
This is mostly why I think it’s better to have the advert thread as being only advertisement information, and any commentary about the game, good or ill, in a separate thread.
The reason I don't like that approach is that I like gamerunners having a post in which they can just answer questions - "is this a L&L game or grimdark?", "do you plan to allow <X>?", etc. I think that information can both help others reading the thread decide if that's the MU* for them, but also game-runners who have this information locked in their heads realize that it's not readily available.
Then keep it to non-opinion-based posts. The point is that if you're going to split commentary, then split off all commentary. You can be Kumbaya-focused and still do this. Or better still:
@kanye-qwest said in Make MSB great again!:
how about just let people criticize or bring up negative experiences without letting it devolve into a bunch of RL character judgments and horrifying vitriol?
That is a very good question. Why can't we do this?
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I'm serious. Why is it that players and staff of any given game don't let this be an okay thing to do? Because...
@wizz said in Make MSB great again!:
it very obviously wasn't happening on its own.
Even knowing that forum staff cares at all is a step in the right direction, and empowers us users to seek out solutions knowing that we have some fiat and request to do so. This should also be a chilling effect on those who don't want to, which is a positive right there.
Wora had one global rule that Peverel came up with: Don't make the admins care. If the admins had to come and do admin things, there is no guarantee that anyone in particular was going to be happy about it, and they would do what they felt needed to be done.
Wora wasn't perfect, but with this and how criminally easy it was to split and move threads, we did start the move toward the forum model we have here today.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos -
‘Old ads’ for games that have closed is a good call.
I would recommend a ‘Games in Dev’ section. Currently, they seem to end up scattered somewhat; keeping them in a home of their own may help with both focus and to corral wayward threads.
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@thenomain said in Make MSB great again!:
@kanye-qwest said in Make MSB great again!:
how about just let people criticize or bring up negative experiences without letting it devolve into a bunch of RL character judgments and horrifying vitriol?
That is a very good question. Why can't we do this?
...
I'm serious. Why is it that players and staff of any given game don't let this be an okay thing to do? Because...
@wizz said in Make MSB great again!:it very obviously wasn't happening on its own.
Because of that old chestnut:
It really isn't rocket science. Text is super easy to misinterpret, text makes people feel more comfortable letting themselves get crazy aggressive to a degree they never would in real life face to face, and having a referee or two and rules to follow generally helps more than it hurts.
Nobody is saying we're not capable of rational discourse, this is just a medium for it that is very difficult if not practically impossible without those things, for literally everyone. We're all only human.
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I was hiliting your "it wasn't happening on its own" then supporting the statement. It won't happen on its own, even though we here are largely no longer anonymous to one another. I might not be known as anything other than Thenomain to a huge number of you, but Thenomain is a solid identity, as is Wizz.
That it's text is a huge part of why, but also as I mention in this comic-book game related thread, even when confronted about certain behaviors that we might call toxic, quite a few people stand up and are proud of them. This isn't just our hobby, this is the state of the world.
The only answer to people like this is moderation--to agree with you further. I was concerned when @Arkandel called this "censorship", but he seems to have backed down on that view. This is a pickle indeed and we are, indeed, human.
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@prototart The person in question is a known abuser and continues to do so, with no consequence here, to the point that the majority of their victims do NOT feel safe to speak up about the abuse that they witnessed and were subjected to.
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@tnp I am not wrong, and was not told I was wrong, about Cupcake.
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@salty-secrets said in Make MSB great again!:
@arkandel MSB doesn't have a place for me to TS so I'm leaving.
Says you. There are all sorts of places, hiding in thread derailments here, private messages there, and subliminally in gifs everywhere. MWAHAHAHA.
On-topic: I... kind of like the wiki idea? Perhaps with links on the wiki pages themselves to the forum threads for discussion as needed.
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@tempest Cupcake accused Botulism of harassment, because Botulism is someone she herself harassed on the Reach, as soon as she figured out that Bot had been one of the players that she had formerly targeted. She has also, several times, tried to dig in who I played, including asking about it 'innocuously' when I first started posting here. It is widely known that Cupcake was Pomona at the Reach and led the 'Welcome Wagon' in the fae sphere, and ended up chasing roughly 20 players off the game, most of them LGBT, and isolating a bunch more. She, along with Prudence and William, proceeded to harass a friend of mine after they quit, on social media, for close to a year, making threats and insults if said friend spoke to anyone. (Said friend, a new MUSHer, quit MUSHing entirely after that and had to make all of their social accounts private, and eventually had to set up redirect services for their IPs.) Cupcake minimised their involvement, but they did name themselves and their IPs matched.
I went into all of it in great detail, and the admins here just shrugged. My inbox then exploded with multiple folks telling me that they had also been subjected to similar and ongoing harassment by Cupcake, but did not want to post publicly for fear of being targeted on games where they both play. I am NOT going to post those names, which several folks requested, because that would be outing victims of stalking. I have not outed who I was on the Reach for the same reason, though I have set myself up for direct shit here because I won't stand for her targeting Botulism every time she can.
As long as this continues to be ok, and as long as you guys keep enabling it, this site will rightfully keep its lousy reputation. The fact that they're ok with YOU targeting players by name and shaming them here, same thing. I'm not at all surprised that you're trying to protect Cupcake.
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@paris (et al.)
Ironically, is this the place for this discussion?
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@thenomain said in Make MSB great again!:
@paris (et al.)
Ironically, is this the place for this discussion?
I was going to make it brief until Tempest decided to target Botulism and justify Cupcake. Since Cupcake loves to bring up Bot in unrelated threads, and nobody complains then, why not?
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@paris Possibly because this is the thread about how to improve MSB and its atmosphere, and you're demonstrating why people feel the need to make that push?
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@caryatid Tempest named names first, while I discussed the behavior, and the atmosphere won't improve as long as you allow stalkers to use this board to harass people. If you're going to blame me, instead of addressing ongoing stalking, then you are part of the problem.
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@ganymede said in Make MSB great again!:
The toxic part of this place is this place.
If you asked me to come to your business and tell you how it could be better and I told you to burn it to the ground and start over, I am pretty sure you would not listen to me, and would, in fact, probably stop listening to me.
You're not helping.
You're mis-characterizing my response.
I'm not telling you to burn it down and start over. I'm telling you what your business really is and to stop pretending it's something else.
An abattoir owner calls me over and asks me to suggest how they could make their business better. I go take a look and find that, for some reason, he's trying to make his abattoir a fine dining lounge. I look around at the horrified diners trying to eat their food while all around them there's blood and entrails flying along with a stench of death in the air.
Telling said abattoir owner to stop trying to sell the place as a fine dining lounge and just, you know, run it as an abattoir is not "burn this all down and start over". Saying that the abattoir can't be converted into a fine dining lounge and that's best left as a separate business entirely is also not saying "burn it all down".
I'm not saying WORA should be burned down. I'm saying it should just fucking accept what it is instead of pretending it's something else.
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@paris said in Make MSB great again!:
Tempest named names first, while I discussed the behavior, and the atmosphere won't improve as long as you allow stalkers to use this board to harass people.
You have a point here.
If you would, then, please send me via PM what you have to show which members here are stalking you or others. If you can, quote or forward any messages you may have received. I'll follow-up with questions if necessary.
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@paris said in Make MSB great again!:
@thenomain said in Make MSB great again!:
@paris (et al.)
Ironically, is this the place for this discussion?
I was going to make it brief until [...]
Until you (edit: more than just you, Paris, but you were the one I most directly responded to) decided to derail a thread about what's wrong with kids these days, yes yes. I'm not saying that you were wrong in your defense, just in the time and place, but as long as someone (Ganymede in this case) is on it I'm mollified.
It was, however, pretty damn ironic.
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Anyways back on topic, I'd lean towards a single sticky'd post of current active games, because it trips me out that I have seen a few different subjects of people posting like, 'HEY ARE THERE ANY X GAMES STILL OPEN' which is a little fucked up that on the one forum actually dedicated to this hobby that someone needs to do that.
And then for the ad forum itself, yeah I'd say just a single post by owners introducing games, which they could update with responses or whatever/a faq, and then a separate thread wherever for the actual questions that can lead to people posting for 30 pages about why not having hookers is bad.
some fucking idiot who people only like because he's good at taking credit for the work of everyone under him, just like every other fucking L&L headwiz.
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I think Q&A in the ad thread should be permitted, with the following caveat: once the game runner or a member of staff provides an answer to the question posed to them, answer has been given; unless the game owner is asking for input about that topic, it’s not the place to debate it. (And, really, staff or the player who contributed the content if such is allowed, should be the ones answering.)
Ideally, post #2 in the thread coul be a FAQ listing such questions with a link to the answer post.
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@apos said in Make MSB great again!:
Anyways back on topic, I'd lean towards a single sticky'd post of current active games, because it trips me out that I have seen a few different subjects of people posting like, 'HEY ARE THERE ANY X GAMES STILL OPEN' which is a little fucked up that on the one forum actually dedicated to this hobby that someone needs to do that.
Yeah, every single response I want to post in those threads is link to the fucking ad section but...well...yeah...
A sticky would be nice, and putting the developing games in the Constructive section for the actual feedback the creators seem to want instead of the ad section would also be nice, and moving the defunct games to some kind of thread graveyard would be even nicer.
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@arkandel said in Make MSB great again!:
No, these are good questions. I don't know! I think it'll depend, it's hard to make concrete rules and try to match what anyone post against them.
The best way is to probably play it by ear.
So, like pornography?